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	Comments on: Amazing Fossil Finding: Proto Whales Gave Birth on Land, not at sea	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/02/03/amazing-fossil-finding-proto-w/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/02/03/amazing-fossil-finding-proto-w/</link>
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		<title>
		By: Theo		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/02/03/amazing-fossil-finding-proto-w/#comment-530170</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Theo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2011 09:30:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/02/03/amazing-fossil-finding-proto-w/#comment-530170</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[fossils are coooool!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>fossils are coooool!</p>
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		<title>
		By: jarvis		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/02/03/amazing-fossil-finding-proto-w/#comment-530169</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jarvis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:32:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/02/03/amazing-fossil-finding-proto-w/#comment-530169</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I am just curious, first creature from the sea crawl out, then later, some distant relative slowly made its way back into the sea? or did the protowhale come out of the sea and birth the collective group of mammals onland???]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am just curious, first creature from the sea crawl out, then later, some distant relative slowly made its way back into the sea? or did the protowhale come out of the sea and birth the collective group of mammals onland???</p>
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		<title>
		By: Canadian Tourism		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/02/03/amazing-fossil-finding-proto-w/#comment-530168</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Canadian Tourism]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 14:18:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/02/03/amazing-fossil-finding-proto-w/#comment-530168</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[We&#039;ve put together a quick, informative video about the Joggins Fossil Cliffs in Nova Scotia where you can learn about their significance in Darwin&#039;s Theory of Evolution.
It&#039;s worth a look!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dCVMeYNDlU]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We&#8217;ve put together a quick, informative video about the Joggins Fossil Cliffs in Nova Scotia where you can learn about their significance in Darwin&#8217;s Theory of Evolution.<br />
It&#8217;s worth a look!</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dCVMeYNDlU" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dCVMeYNDlU</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/02/03/amazing-fossil-finding-proto-w/#comment-530167</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:47:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/02/03/amazing-fossil-finding-proto-w/#comment-530167</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[James:  Funny how the word &quot;Paleoanthropologist&quot; sort of took off like that. My mistake.  He&#039;s a paleoanthropologist.

The cost of publishing in PLoS varies.  The ideal model is that you write the cost into grants and thus it is covered up front.  At the opposite extreme would be an independent scholar who had no such funds. That person would have a different price.  

I&#039;d also like to add that publishing in &quot;non OpenAccess&quot; journals is not necessarily free.  It could cost, say, 1,200 bucks to put a paper with a few graphics in PNAS.  
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James:  Funny how the word &#8220;Paleoanthropologist&#8221; sort of took off like that. My mistake.  He&#8217;s a paleoanthropologist.</p>
<p>The cost of publishing in PLoS varies.  The ideal model is that you write the cost into grants and thus it is covered up front.  At the opposite extreme would be an independent scholar who had no such funds. That person would have a different price.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;d also like to add that publishing in &#8220;non OpenAccess&#8221; journals is not necessarily free.  It could cost, say, 1,200 bucks to put a paper with a few graphics in PNAS.  </p>
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		<title>
		By: James		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/02/03/amazing-fossil-finding-proto-w/#comment-530166</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[James]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:03:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/02/03/amazing-fossil-finding-proto-w/#comment-530166</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Gingerich would certainly be near the top of my list of living &quot;dream-team&quot; paleontologists, but he isn&#039;t a paleoanthropologist.  In fact, I&#039;m pretty sure that he&#039;d be mildly insulted by the accusation.  

And while it would not surprise me if the regular readers of a blog enthusiastically supported the sort of free access provided by PLoS journals, I&#039;m a little surprised that the _author_ of the blog does.  Imagine if your provider charged you $2,500 for every blog entry.  Check out the cost of publishing with these guys sometime.  It&#039;s quite something. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gingerich would certainly be near the top of my list of living &#8220;dream-team&#8221; paleontologists, but he isn&#8217;t a paleoanthropologist.  In fact, I&#8217;m pretty sure that he&#8217;d be mildly insulted by the accusation.  </p>
<p>And while it would not surprise me if the regular readers of a blog enthusiastically supported the sort of free access provided by PLoS journals, I&#8217;m a little surprised that the _author_ of the blog does.  Imagine if your provider charged you $2,500 for every blog entry.  Check out the cost of publishing with these guys sometime.  It&#8217;s quite something. </p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/02/03/amazing-fossil-finding-proto-w/#comment-530165</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Feb 2009 11:26:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/02/03/amazing-fossil-finding-proto-w/#comment-530165</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;and possibly some higher apes&lt;/em&gt;

Doubtful.  Apes have small head, no necks.  Probably just humans, as you say.

It is highly unlikely that this whale &quot;died in childbirth&quot; ... death in &quot;childbirth&quot; is very rare except in humans and many domestic critters.  Most likely something else went wrong, and there are many possibilities that are not scavengers.  Marine mammals die en mass fairly frequently.  ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>and possibly some higher apes</em></p>
<p>Doubtful.  Apes have small head, no necks.  Probably just humans, as you say.</p>
<p>It is highly unlikely that this whale &#8220;died in childbirth&#8221; &#8230; death in &#8220;childbirth&#8221; is very rare except in humans and many domestic critters.  Most likely something else went wrong, and there are many possibilities that are not scavengers.  Marine mammals die en mass fairly frequently.  </p>
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		<title>
		By: James Orpin		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/02/03/amazing-fossil-finding-proto-w/#comment-530164</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[James Orpin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Feb 2009 03:26:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/02/03/amazing-fossil-finding-proto-w/#comment-530164</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s unlikely the cephalic presentation resulted in the mother&#039;s death. In terms of causing complications to the birth cephalic vs breach presentation is only a significant problem for humans (and possibly some higher apes).

In humans large fetal head size and a narrow birth canal mean that if the body comes out first the neck extends rather than flexes when going through the birth canal. If it flexes the largest cross-section is aprrox forehead to occiput, when extended it is chin to ociput - much larger - this means the head can get stuck.

]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s unlikely the cephalic presentation resulted in the mother&#8217;s death. In terms of causing complications to the birth cephalic vs breach presentation is only a significant problem for humans (and possibly some higher apes).</p>
<p>In humans large fetal head size and a narrow birth canal mean that if the body comes out first the neck extends rather than flexes when going through the birth canal. If it flexes the largest cross-section is aprrox forehead to occiput, when extended it is chin to ociput &#8211; much larger &#8211; this means the head can get stuck.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Nautilus_mr		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/02/03/amazing-fossil-finding-proto-w/#comment-530163</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nautilus_mr]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 22:23:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/02/03/amazing-fossil-finding-proto-w/#comment-530163</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[As readers of this, and similiar, blogs will know, opponents of evolution have turned their attention in recent years to undermining the credibility of paleontologists. They attempt to exploit instances of poor reasoning, particularly when scientists are making inferences beyond the data.

With that in mind, I offer a few concerns about the interpretation of this fossil. If the fossil were an example of a proto-whale giving birth with cephalic presentation, it would be an important find, for all the reasons given above -but is the fossil really evidence of this?

Obviously the animal did not give birth to the fetus, which means we should be asking the question: rather than assuming the fetus&#039; orientation was normal for the animal, is is possible the fetus&#039; orientation may have actually contributed to the animal&#039;s death?

Imagine that the Maiacetus inuus sought out calm waters with few local predators for birthing; this would explain why the carcass has been well preserved, highly intact. Had the animal died within range of the kinds of predators which would normally threaten newborn calves, the carcass would have certainly been dismantled due to scavenging by reasonably large carnivores. We can therefore rule out cause of death by predation. 

There are of course many possible causes of death, but the cause of death may have been precisely because of the fetus&#039; cephalic orientation - possibly the inverse of a breach birth trauma for this animal.  In any case, we must also consider that the fetus was not preserved in its birthing position, but may have moved during term, or perhaps even after the mother Maiacetus inuus had died. 

There are so many unambiguous transitional forms, we don&#039;t need to provide grist to anyone&#039;s mill by throwing wild interpretations at a clearly inconclusive fossil. 
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As readers of this, and similiar, blogs will know, opponents of evolution have turned their attention in recent years to undermining the credibility of paleontologists. They attempt to exploit instances of poor reasoning, particularly when scientists are making inferences beyond the data.</p>
<p>With that in mind, I offer a few concerns about the interpretation of this fossil. If the fossil were an example of a proto-whale giving birth with cephalic presentation, it would be an important find, for all the reasons given above -but is the fossil really evidence of this?</p>
<p>Obviously the animal did not give birth to the fetus, which means we should be asking the question: rather than assuming the fetus&#8217; orientation was normal for the animal, is is possible the fetus&#8217; orientation may have actually contributed to the animal&#8217;s death?</p>
<p>Imagine that the Maiacetus inuus sought out calm waters with few local predators for birthing; this would explain why the carcass has been well preserved, highly intact. Had the animal died within range of the kinds of predators which would normally threaten newborn calves, the carcass would have certainly been dismantled due to scavenging by reasonably large carnivores. We can therefore rule out cause of death by predation. </p>
<p>There are of course many possible causes of death, but the cause of death may have been precisely because of the fetus&#8217; cephalic orientation &#8211; possibly the inverse of a breach birth trauma for this animal.  In any case, we must also consider that the fetus was not preserved in its birthing position, but may have moved during term, or perhaps even after the mother Maiacetus inuus had died. </p>
<p>There are so many unambiguous transitional forms, we don&#8217;t need to provide grist to anyone&#8217;s mill by throwing wild interpretations at a clearly inconclusive fossil. </p>
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		<title>
		By: Phil		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/02/03/amazing-fossil-finding-proto-w/#comment-530162</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phil]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Feb 2009 23:53:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/02/03/amazing-fossil-finding-proto-w/#comment-530162</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[How did ancestral whales go from headfirst to tailfirst birth? Very cool fossil though. Perhaps the question should be, when did this occur. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How did ancestral whales go from headfirst to tailfirst birth? Very cool fossil though. Perhaps the question should be, when did this occur. </p>
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		<title>
		By: Coturnix		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/02/03/amazing-fossil-finding-proto-w/#comment-530161</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Coturnix]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Feb 2009 17:22:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/02/03/amazing-fossil-finding-proto-w/#comment-530161</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[If you tried to send a trackback - don&#039;t worry.  TOPAZ upgrade saved them elsewhere and will automatically put them on the paper once the process is over.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you tried to send a trackback &#8211; don&#8217;t worry.  TOPAZ upgrade saved them elsewhere and will automatically put them on the paper once the process is over.</p>
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