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	Comments on: The Story of Stories:  The Siege of Mugombane	</title>
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	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/01/09/the-story-of-stories-the-siege/</link>
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		<title>
		By: Dr JC van der Walt		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/01/09/the-story-of-stories-the-siege/#comment-529391</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dr JC van der Walt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2012 09:20:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/01/09/the-story-of-stories-the-siege/#comment-529391</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In 1841 the Voortrekkers in Natal complained about the &quot;scandalous and inhuman acts of slavery&quot; by Andries Hendrik Potgieter and his followers in the Transvaal.  He captured black children and sold them as slaves in Lourenco Margues. The governor of Mozambique, d&#039;Abreu de Lima wrote on 31 August 1844:&quot;Potgieter arrived with 300 slaves and ivory.&quot; Field-cornet AJ de Lange complaned on 25 August 1847 that Potgieter attacked the peaceful chief Mapela and he killed as many blacks as he could.

Hermanus Potgieter was extremely cruel to wards blacks. He captured their cattle and kidnapped their children as &quot;inboekelinge&quot;. He also murdered the brother of Makapan. The wagon track from Zoutpansberg was the main route for ivory as well as &quot;black Ivory&quot; or child slaves. The amaNdebele chiefs took revenge and murdered 23 Boers near the track in 1854. The Boers took revenge and starved some 900 amaNedebele to death in Makapans Cave in October-November 1854. THIS IS THE TRUTH.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In 1841 the Voortrekkers in Natal complained about the &#8220;scandalous and inhuman acts of slavery&#8221; by Andries Hendrik Potgieter and his followers in the Transvaal.  He captured black children and sold them as slaves in Lourenco Margues. The governor of Mozambique, d&#8217;Abreu de Lima wrote on 31 August 1844:&#8221;Potgieter arrived with 300 slaves and ivory.&#8221; Field-cornet AJ de Lange complaned on 25 August 1847 that Potgieter attacked the peaceful chief Mapela and he killed as many blacks as he could.</p>
<p>Hermanus Potgieter was extremely cruel to wards blacks. He captured their cattle and kidnapped their children as &#8220;inboekelinge&#8221;. He also murdered the brother of Makapan. The wagon track from Zoutpansberg was the main route for ivory as well as &#8220;black Ivory&#8221; or child slaves. The amaNdebele chiefs took revenge and murdered 23 Boers near the track in 1854. The Boers took revenge and starved some 900 amaNedebele to death in Makapans Cave in October-November 1854. THIS IS THE TRUTH.</p>
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		By: kevin		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/01/09/the-story-of-stories-the-siege/#comment-529390</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kevin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Mar 2012 18:51:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/01/09/the-story-of-stories-the-siege/#comment-529390</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[i am from south africa. some of my lineage stems from the Kekana people. i recall that when i was fifteen i asked my grandmother about the history of the Ndebele. where they came from and the like. even when she was telling me she was very secretive and withheld some of the history and i understand why. the african people are very secretive in their tradition n cultures, to parade ourselves and our origins by giving it away to other nations is seen as taboo. we seldom do it. i know the full history of what happened at the caves of Mokopane, but like my grandma i cannot tell, i would be betraying her and my people, dat is how i see it. it is the history of my people and we will keep it in our circles. the westerners have their version, let us keep ours. whichever one is true. i like and agree with what one of the comments said. history does belong to the winner.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i am from south africa. some of my lineage stems from the Kekana people. i recall that when i was fifteen i asked my grandmother about the history of the Ndebele. where they came from and the like. even when she was telling me she was very secretive and withheld some of the history and i understand why. the african people are very secretive in their tradition n cultures, to parade ourselves and our origins by giving it away to other nations is seen as taboo. we seldom do it. i know the full history of what happened at the caves of Mokopane, but like my grandma i cannot tell, i would be betraying her and my people, dat is how i see it. it is the history of my people and we will keep it in our circles. the westerners have their version, let us keep ours. whichever one is true. i like and agree with what one of the comments said. history does belong to the winner.</p>
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		<title>
		By: jim		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/01/09/the-story-of-stories-the-siege/#comment-529389</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Nov 2010 18:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/01/09/the-story-of-stories-the-siege/#comment-529389</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;This would have been part of a broader British anti-slavery commitment that also played out (a bit later in time) in the Sudan and elsewhere in East Africa, and that would ultimately culminate in the Anglo-Boer Wars which were, up until World War I, the largest, longest, most intense in terms of human resources and war dead overseas commitment ever made by the British Empire.&quot;

Yes, one might call sending out an army armed with gatlings, to mow down the locals or avenge the death of an English general as an &quot;anti-slavery commitment&quot;, however Newbolt certainly made no mention Her empire&#039;s noble cause in VitaÃ¯ Lampada and neither should we.

Too suggest the Anglo-Boer wars were about slavery is naive -- you only have to look at the crown jewels.  The only reason the British made such a commitment was that they got such a hiding.  They got taught lessons in fieldcraft and marksmanship, lessons which they failed to learn going into WWI &amp; II, if we are to believe the likes of Field-Marshall Wavell.  Eventually it took Kitchener, fresh from Afghanistan, to implement his system of concentration camps -- for which the Afghan&#039;s still hate him, however Afrikaners remain alot more ambivalent and philosophical.

For the closest correlation to an apartheid system in a western democracy you need look no further than Northern Ireland.  The Catholic Human Rights demonstrators of &#039;69, were treated to internment - detention without trial, an oppressive minority occupying force, curfews, state sanctioned executions against citizens.  This continued into the eighties, at a time when Apartheid was being denounced by the UK.  There has still been no TRC or even regret on the part of the UK government.

It is clear from Chief B. Mokhonoana&#039;s comments that an oral history for this event does exist, and has in this instance been overlooked in Esterhuysen&#039;s paper, sadly. As to the veracity of that history well ...

Stephanie Z writes &quot;The standards of evidence for a lawyer are &quot;Whatever they&#039;ll let me include that supports the case I&#039;m trying to make.&quot; I can think of many open minded lawyers who are more interested in truth and the facts, and would use there powers for this pursuit.  These may in fact be of the ilk who might write, dare I say it those &quot;creationism books&quot;.  

Far be it from this commentator to cast aspersions on ones fore fathers both black, white and in between, even in the last 15 years our world has changed radically particularly in how we view it, to judge those who lived 200 years ago both black and white is very much to throw stones at glass houses.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;This would have been part of a broader British anti-slavery commitment that also played out (a bit later in time) in the Sudan and elsewhere in East Africa, and that would ultimately culminate in the Anglo-Boer Wars which were, up until World War I, the largest, longest, most intense in terms of human resources and war dead overseas commitment ever made by the British Empire.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes, one might call sending out an army armed with gatlings, to mow down the locals or avenge the death of an English general as an &#8220;anti-slavery commitment&#8221;, however Newbolt certainly made no mention Her empire&#8217;s noble cause in VitaÃ¯ Lampada and neither should we.</p>
<p>Too suggest the Anglo-Boer wars were about slavery is naive &#8212; you only have to look at the crown jewels.  The only reason the British made such a commitment was that they got such a hiding.  They got taught lessons in fieldcraft and marksmanship, lessons which they failed to learn going into WWI &#038; II, if we are to believe the likes of Field-Marshall Wavell.  Eventually it took Kitchener, fresh from Afghanistan, to implement his system of concentration camps &#8212; for which the Afghan&#8217;s still hate him, however Afrikaners remain alot more ambivalent and philosophical.</p>
<p>For the closest correlation to an apartheid system in a western democracy you need look no further than Northern Ireland.  The Catholic Human Rights demonstrators of &#8217;69, were treated to internment &#8211; detention without trial, an oppressive minority occupying force, curfews, state sanctioned executions against citizens.  This continued into the eighties, at a time when Apartheid was being denounced by the UK.  There has still been no TRC or even regret on the part of the UK government.</p>
<p>It is clear from Chief B. Mokhonoana&#8217;s comments that an oral history for this event does exist, and has in this instance been overlooked in Esterhuysen&#8217;s paper, sadly. As to the veracity of that history well &#8230;</p>
<p>Stephanie Z writes &#8220;The standards of evidence for a lawyer are &#8220;Whatever they&#8217;ll let me include that supports the case I&#8217;m trying to make.&#8221; I can think of many open minded lawyers who are more interested in truth and the facts, and would use there powers for this pursuit.  These may in fact be of the ilk who might write, dare I say it those &#8220;creationism books&#8221;.  </p>
<p>Far be it from this commentator to cast aspersions on ones fore fathers both black, white and in between, even in the last 15 years our world has changed radically particularly in how we view it, to judge those who lived 200 years ago both black and white is very much to throw stones at glass houses.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Trevor		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/01/09/the-story-of-stories-the-siege/#comment-529388</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Trevor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Aug 2010 14:49:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/01/09/the-story-of-stories-the-siege/#comment-529388</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Simple fact of the matter is that history is written by the winner... At this time in our worlds history, and before, people took what they could and what they wanted by force, and that made it theirs. Now the Voortrekkers were pioneers, as someone stated, &quot;Pioneers are the first people to do something,&quot; Well they were the first white people to move into the interior of South Africa, ie. doing something first. The fact of the matter is blacks killed whites, whites killed blacks, I&#039;m not saying in that particular order, and then the opposite parties exacted revenge apon them. Innocents were killed on either side too, in a brutal manner. This is just one form of this history that you can draw from, one should not take this as the be all and end all of history as we know it, One must draw from many sources to be able to formulate their own opinion and more often than not their own idea of history is to either side of what the actual truth is. I myself for example have read both of the sources listed here and suggest to all of the readers here further reading in ACADEMIC Journals and published books, preferably academic journals. On a closing note, I would like to thank the author for his writings as I have found them interesting, to the others who have commented, thank you for your input, finally, word for the day, Conquest. By the way Arianne I&#039;m doing the same essay as you.   ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simple fact of the matter is that history is written by the winner&#8230; At this time in our worlds history, and before, people took what they could and what they wanted by force, and that made it theirs. Now the Voortrekkers were pioneers, as someone stated, &#8220;Pioneers are the first people to do something,&#8221; Well they were the first white people to move into the interior of South Africa, ie. doing something first. The fact of the matter is blacks killed whites, whites killed blacks, I&#8217;m not saying in that particular order, and then the opposite parties exacted revenge apon them. Innocents were killed on either side too, in a brutal manner. This is just one form of this history that you can draw from, one should not take this as the be all and end all of history as we know it, One must draw from many sources to be able to formulate their own opinion and more often than not their own idea of history is to either side of what the actual truth is. I myself for example have read both of the sources listed here and suggest to all of the readers here further reading in ACADEMIC Journals and published books, preferably academic journals. On a closing note, I would like to thank the author for his writings as I have found them interesting, to the others who have commented, thank you for your input, finally, word for the day, Conquest. By the way Arianne I&#8217;m doing the same essay as you.   </p>
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		<title>
		By: Arianne		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/01/09/the-story-of-stories-the-siege/#comment-529387</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Arianne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2010 17:18:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/01/09/the-story-of-stories-the-siege/#comment-529387</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Hi everyone, thank you so much for the very interesting blog... It may sound weird but Im currently doing my semester essay for South African history on the seige of Makapans Cave asnd this is one of 3 out of a possible 90+ results that turned up in my search index... I really appreciate the extra information as it has given me a great starting point for information. I will definetly research everything mentioned and then post back and let you know what I found. ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi everyone, thank you so much for the very interesting blog&#8230; It may sound weird but Im currently doing my semester essay for South African history on the seige of Makapans Cave asnd this is one of 3 out of a possible 90+ results that turned up in my search index&#8230; I really appreciate the extra information as it has given me a great starting point for information. I will definetly research everything mentioned and then post back and let you know what I found. </p>
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		<title>
		By: Chief B. Mokhonoana		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/01/09/the-story-of-stories-the-siege/#comment-529386</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chief B. Mokhonoana]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 08:40:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/01/09/the-story-of-stories-the-siege/#comment-529386</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[IF WE ARE TO BEAT AROUND THE BUSH WE WONT EVER SOLVE THIS.I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN TAUGHT THAT THE TREKKERS , WERE FORCING THIER WHITE GOD ON MY PEOPLE AND THEY COULDN&#039;T ACCEPT A WHITE GOD. MY PEOPLE WHERE SMOKED OUT OF THE CAVES , THEY WERE BRUTALLY MURDERED AND OUR WOMEN WERE RAPED. IF YOU THINK IT IS FAR FETCH GENES NEVER LIE. I AM TIRED FORM THE AFRIKAANER SAY THAT THEY DIDN&#039;T KILL OUR PEOPLE.THIS STORY HAS BEEN PASSED ON FROM GENERATION TO GENERATION. TO SHOW THAT MORE THAN A THOUSAND PEOPLE WERE KILLED, IN OUR TRIBE THERE ARE ONLY 11 SURNAMES OF WHICH 4 ARE FROM MUGOMBANE NOW YOU TELL ME HOW MANY NEL ARE THERE ?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IF WE ARE TO BEAT AROUND THE BUSH WE WONT EVER SOLVE THIS.I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN TAUGHT THAT THE TREKKERS , WERE FORCING THIER WHITE GOD ON MY PEOPLE AND THEY COULDN&#8217;T ACCEPT A WHITE GOD. MY PEOPLE WHERE SMOKED OUT OF THE CAVES , THEY WERE BRUTALLY MURDERED AND OUR WOMEN WERE RAPED. IF YOU THINK IT IS FAR FETCH GENES NEVER LIE. I AM TIRED FORM THE AFRIKAANER SAY THAT THEY DIDN&#8217;T KILL OUR PEOPLE.THIS STORY HAS BEEN PASSED ON FROM GENERATION TO GENERATION. TO SHOW THAT MORE THAN A THOUSAND PEOPLE WERE KILLED, IN OUR TRIBE THERE ARE ONLY 11 SURNAMES OF WHICH 4 ARE FROM MUGOMBANE NOW YOU TELL ME HOW MANY NEL ARE THERE ?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Stephanie Z		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/01/09/the-story-of-stories-the-siege/#comment-529385</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stephanie Z]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 12:59:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/01/09/the-story-of-stories-the-siege/#comment-529385</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Jaco, must scientists stay away from politics? Should we not be allowed to look scientifically at political questions? In other words, think about what you&#039;re saying.

You might also want to think very hard about any source that calls the Trekboers &quot;pioneers.&quot; Pioneers are the first people to do something. Any source that calls people talking over populated land &quot;pioneers&quot; is displaying a significant bias against treating the natives as people.

That&#039;s obviously the case here as well. It took very little effort on my part to find out that the Trekboers traveled with slaves. This makes them part of the industry, even if slavery was not a primary industry for them.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jaco, must scientists stay away from politics? Should we not be allowed to look scientifically at political questions? In other words, think about what you&#8217;re saying.</p>
<p>You might also want to think very hard about any source that calls the Trekboers &#8220;pioneers.&#8221; Pioneers are the first people to do something. Any source that calls people talking over populated land &#8220;pioneers&#8221; is displaying a significant bias against treating the natives as people.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s obviously the case here as well. It took very little effort on my part to find out that the Trekboers traveled with slaves. This makes them part of the industry, even if slavery was not a primary industry for them.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jaco		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/01/09/the-story-of-stories-the-siege/#comment-529384</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jaco]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:53:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/01/09/the-story-of-stories-the-siege/#comment-529384</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Greg,

Are you a politician or a scientist?

What reference do you have that the Trekkers were involved in the slave trade?

From what I have read, these Pioneers were simple but God fearing people. They had to survive the pressures of living in the African bush, pushed by the English in the south and opposed by the black tribes in the north.

In my view they are being unjustly vilified by you.

Regards,

Jaco]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg,</p>
<p>Are you a politician or a scientist?</p>
<p>What reference do you have that the Trekkers were involved in the slave trade?</p>
<p>From what I have read, these Pioneers were simple but God fearing people. They had to survive the pressures of living in the African bush, pushed by the English in the south and opposed by the black tribes in the north.</p>
<p>In my view they are being unjustly vilified by you.</p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>Jaco</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jaco		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/01/09/the-story-of-stories-the-siege/#comment-529383</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jaco]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:50:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/01/09/the-story-of-stories-the-siege/#comment-529383</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Greg,

Are you a politician or a scientist?

What reference do you have that the Trekkers were involved in the slave trade?

From what I have read, these Pioneers were simple but God fearing people. They had to survive the pressures of living in the African bush, pushed by the English in the south and opposed by the black tribes in the north.

In my view they are being unjustly vilified by you.

Regards,

Jaco]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg,</p>
<p>Are you a politician or a scientist?</p>
<p>What reference do you have that the Trekkers were involved in the slave trade?</p>
<p>From what I have read, these Pioneers were simple but God fearing people. They had to survive the pressures of living in the African bush, pushed by the English in the south and opposed by the black tribes in the north.</p>
<p>In my view they are being unjustly vilified by you.</p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>Jaco</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jaco		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2009/01/09/the-story-of-stories-the-siege/#comment-529382</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jaco]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:46:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2009/01/09/the-story-of-stories-the-siege/#comment-529382</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Greg,

Are you a politician or a scientist?

What reference do you have that the Trekkers were involved in the slave trade?

From what I have read, these Pioneers were simple but God fearing people. They had to survive the pressures of living in the African bush, pushed by the English in the south and opposed by the black tribes in the north.

In my view they are being unjustly vilified by you.

Regards,

Jaco]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg,</p>
<p>Are you a politician or a scientist?</p>
<p>What reference do you have that the Trekkers were involved in the slave trade?</p>
<p>From what I have read, these Pioneers were simple but God fearing people. They had to survive the pressures of living in the African bush, pushed by the English in the south and opposed by the black tribes in the north.</p>
<p>In my view they are being unjustly vilified by you.</p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>Jaco</p>
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