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	<title>
	Comments on: Steven Gould Coopted Into Teleological Demonstration of Evolution!!!!!	</title>
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	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2008/06/29/steven-gould-coopted-into-tele/</link>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2008/06/29/steven-gould-coopted-into-tele/#comment-10585</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:16:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/06/29/steven-gould-coopted-into-tele/#comment-10585</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;If you can&#039;t bring yourself to admit the sloppiness,&lt;/em&gt;I fully admit to not caring.  As to sloppiness, in this case, no.  I really have not embraced the blogospheric attitude that if it happened the day before yesterday that it does not exist.  If you look at my blogging on peer reviewed research, you&#039;ll see that I sometimes blog older material.  In fact, I have a paper from 2000 that I&#039;m about to do by popular demand.  Your particular view of how I should blog is of no interest to me whatsoever.  Other than that it is kind of funny.Sloppiness in other ways, on a blog?  Me?  Seriously?&lt;em&gt;I have nothing more to add.&lt;/em&gt;I&#039;m holding you to that, buster.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>If you can&#8217;t bring yourself to admit the sloppiness,</em>I fully admit to not caring.  As to sloppiness, in this case, no.  I really have not embraced the blogospheric attitude that if it happened the day before yesterday that it does not exist.  If you look at my blogging on peer reviewed research, you&#8217;ll see that I sometimes blog older material.  In fact, I have a paper from 2000 that I&#8217;m about to do by popular demand.  Your particular view of how I should blog is of no interest to me whatsoever.  Other than that it is kind of funny.Sloppiness in other ways, on a blog?  Me?  Seriously?<em>I have nothing more to add.</em>I&#8217;m holding you to that, buster.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Stephanie Z		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2008/06/29/steven-gould-coopted-into-tele/#comment-10584</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stephanie Z]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:37:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/06/29/steven-gould-coopted-into-tele/#comment-10584</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Scott, as usual, that would be a relief.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott, as usual, that would be a relief.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ian		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2008/06/29/steven-gould-coopted-into-tele/#comment-10583</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:28:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/06/29/steven-gould-coopted-into-tele/#comment-10583</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s a shame there&#039;s nowhere to directly comment at the originating site!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a shame there&#8217;s nowhere to directly comment at the originating site!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Scott Belyea		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2008/06/29/steven-gould-coopted-into-tele/#comment-10582</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott Belyea]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:09:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/06/29/steven-gould-coopted-into-tele/#comment-10582</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;Scott: I did put the date on it, didn&#039;t I? &lt;/blockquote&gt;On the newspaper article, no. The 2006 date was only mentioned down at the bottom of your post in the ref to the journal article.&lt;blockquote&gt;someone is making a terrible fool of themselves. &lt;/blockquote&gt;&quot;...someone made a terrible fool of themselves 2 years ago.&quot;Besides, it seems to me that it was adequately covered in this ScienceBlog item from 2 years ago - http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/07/think_before_morphing.phpLook, it was sloppy not to (at the least) specify up front that this was a retrospective post on something that was two years old. All it would have taken was &quot;This is two years old, but still as relevant as ever.&quot;If you can&#039;t bring yourself to admit the sloppiness, I have nothing more to add.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Scott: I did put the date on it, didn&#8217;t I? </p></blockquote>
<p>On the newspaper article, no. The 2006 date was only mentioned down at the bottom of your post in the ref to the journal article.</p>
<blockquote><p>someone is making a terrible fool of themselves. </p></blockquote>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;someone made a terrible fool of themselves 2 years ago.&#8221;Besides, it seems to me that it was adequately covered in this ScienceBlog item from 2 years ago &#8211; <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/07/think_before_morphing.phpLook" rel="nofollow ugc">http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/07/think_before_morphing.phpLook</a>, it was sloppy not to (at the least) specify up front that this was a retrospective post on something that was two years old. All it would have taken was &#8220;This is two years old, but still as relevant as ever.&#8221;If you can&#8217;t bring yourself to admit the sloppiness, I have nothing more to add.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2008/06/29/steven-gould-coopted-into-tele/#comment-10581</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:16:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/06/29/steven-gould-coopted-into-tele/#comment-10581</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[This is clearly something added.  The entire premise of the framing of this piece (which is not about lineal evolution ... the lineal evolution is added only to the frame) is clear, and significant work was done to produce it.  They had dug themselves in (see this week&#039;s &quot;This photo needs a caption&quot; for illustration of same!).There is much intrinsically wrong with this depiction.  They have taken a series of living species and treated them as steps along the way from the LCA of prosimians and apes/monkeys.  The ancestral primate may or may not have been lemur like.  The common ancestor of apes and monkeys was undoubtedly NOT like a spider monkey.  And so on.The equivalent in technology would be like taking a measure, say, number of things a piece of technology can do, and lining them up as evolutionary stages.  So, a chumby is the first computer.  This evolved into an iphone, which evolved into a laptop, which evolved into a desktop.In theory, it is possible to have a series of living fossils that do represent stages in evolution along a particular lineage to stand in for something like this, but off hand I cant think of any ancient lineages with sufficient living fossils to actually do that.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is clearly something added.  The entire premise of the framing of this piece (which is not about lineal evolution &#8230; the lineal evolution is added only to the frame) is clear, and significant work was done to produce it.  They had dug themselves in (see this week&#8217;s &#8220;This photo needs a caption&#8221; for illustration of same!).There is much intrinsically wrong with this depiction.  They have taken a series of living species and treated them as steps along the way from the LCA of prosimians and apes/monkeys.  The ancestral primate may or may not have been lemur like.  The common ancestor of apes and monkeys was undoubtedly NOT like a spider monkey.  And so on.The equivalent in technology would be like taking a measure, say, number of things a piece of technology can do, and lining them up as evolutionary stages.  So, a chumby is the first computer.  This evolved into an iphone, which evolved into a laptop, which evolved into a desktop.In theory, it is possible to have a series of living fossils that do represent stages in evolution along a particular lineage to stand in for something like this, but off hand I cant think of any ancient lineages with sufficient living fossils to actually do that.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Paul W.		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2008/06/29/steven-gould-coopted-into-tele/#comment-10580</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul W.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:00:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/06/29/steven-gould-coopted-into-tele/#comment-10580</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I think you&#039;re being a bit unfair to Shankar Vedantam here.The WaPo article ends this way:&lt;blockquote&gt;Come to think of it, the late Stephen Jay Gould might have been upset with the above illustration. Contrary to the popular imagination, evolution is not a linear process that culminates in the triumphal ascent of humans at the top of the genetic heap. The process is analogous to a bush, where twigs and leaves push out in every direction.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;When biologists talk about evolution and the survival of the fittest, they do not necessarily mean the strongest, fastest or smartest. Fitness is whatever works in a particular environment, and the new research shows that as environments change, notions of fitness change, too.&lt;/blockquote&gt;(Was that in the original version, or was it added later?)The picture caption just sucks, though.  I wonder if somebody else wrote it.  (Maybe the artist, or an editor.)There&#039;s nothing intrinsicallly wrong with a linear illustration of the evolution of a given species, as long as you make it clear that what you&#039;re talking about is a particular path through a tree to some descendant you&#039;re particularly interested in.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you&#8217;re being a bit unfair to Shankar Vedantam here.The WaPo article ends this way:</p>
<blockquote><p>Come to think of it, the late Stephen Jay Gould might have been upset with the above illustration. Contrary to the popular imagination, evolution is not a linear process that culminates in the triumphal ascent of humans at the top of the genetic heap. The process is analogous to a bush, where twigs and leaves push out in every direction.</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>When biologists talk about evolution and the survival of the fittest, they do not necessarily mean the strongest, fastest or smartest. Fitness is whatever works in a particular environment, and the new research shows that as environments change, notions of fitness change, too.</p></blockquote>
<p>(Was that in the original version, or was it added later?)The picture caption just sucks, though.  I wonder if somebody else wrote it.  (Maybe the artist, or an editor.)There&#8217;s nothing intrinsicallly wrong with a linear illustration of the evolution of a given species, as long as you make it clear that what you&#8217;re talking about is a particular path through a tree to some descendant you&#8217;re particularly interested in.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Greg Laden		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2008/06/29/steven-gould-coopted-into-tele/#comment-10579</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Greg Laden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:59:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/06/29/steven-gould-coopted-into-tele/#comment-10579</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Scott:  I did put the date on it, didn&#039;t I?  Do agregeous idiocies get better after two years or something?Perhaps this is a reason that everything on the internet should die in 6 months or so.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott:  I did put the date on it, didn&#8217;t I?  Do agregeous idiocies get better after two years or something?Perhaps this is a reason that everything on the internet should die in 6 months or so.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Scott Belyea		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2008/06/29/steven-gould-coopted-into-tele/#comment-10578</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott Belyea]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:55:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/06/29/steven-gould-coopted-into-tele/#comment-10578</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I do hope that you realize that the article is 2 years old ...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do hope that you realize that the article is 2 years old &#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Samantha Vimes		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2008/06/29/steven-gould-coopted-into-tele/#comment-10577</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Samantha Vimes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 05:59:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/06/29/steven-gould-coopted-into-tele/#comment-10577</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The voice of Stephen Jay Gould rises from his grave:&quot;I wrote books that explain HOW WRONG YOU ARE! Your understanding of evolutionary theory is made of fail. Please read ANY of my books to begin to understand the basic concepts you are trying to explain....*&amp;^%#$ bushes, not *^%#( ladders.&quot;(sorry, but guess what I&#039;ve been reading lately?)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The voice of Stephen Jay Gould rises from his grave:&#8221;I wrote books that explain HOW WRONG YOU ARE! Your understanding of evolutionary theory is made of fail. Please read ANY of my books to begin to understand the basic concepts you are trying to explain&#8230;.*&#038;^%#$ bushes, not *^%#( ladders.&#8221;(sorry, but guess what I&#8217;ve been reading lately?)</p>
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		<title>
		By: AnnieT		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2008/06/29/steven-gould-coopted-into-tele/#comment-10576</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AnnieT]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 23:05:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/06/29/steven-gould-coopted-into-tele/#comment-10576</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Gould was no less Anglo than the next privileged white male Harvard professor.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gould was no less Anglo than the next privileged white male Harvard professor.</p>
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