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	Comments on: Engineer, Heal Thyself	</title>
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	<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2008/06/13/engineer-heal-thyself/</link>
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		<title>
		By: Eamon Knight		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2008/06/13/engineer-heal-thyself/#comment-9690</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Eamon Knight]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 19:36:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/06/13/engineer-heal-thyself/#comment-9690</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;As a computer scientist (which is really a field closer to &quot;engineer&quot; than &quot;scientist&quot; in the majority of cases),&lt;/i&gt;I once had some moron fundy, when I said that contra his claims, very few scientists were creationists, interrupt me to tell about how he had personally converted a &quot;scientist&quot; -- ie. &lt;b&gt;computer&lt;/b&gt; science. I didn&#039;t get a chance to tell him that CS is not a science, in any sense relevant to the cre/evo debate (and that my M.Eng. in Systems &amp; Computer is basically CS, minus the more esoteric math and language stuff).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>As a computer scientist (which is really a field closer to &#8220;engineer&#8221; than &#8220;scientist&#8221; in the majority of cases),</i>I once had some moron fundy, when I said that contra his claims, very few scientists were creationists, interrupt me to tell about how he had personally converted a &#8220;scientist&#8221; &#8212; ie. <b>computer</b> science. I didn&#8217;t get a chance to tell him that CS is not a science, in any sense relevant to the cre/evo debate (and that my M.Eng. in Systems &#038; Computer is basically CS, minus the more esoteric math and language stuff).</p>
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		<title>
		By: Chas		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2008/06/13/engineer-heal-thyself/#comment-9689</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:26:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/06/13/engineer-heal-thyself/#comment-9689</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m a civil engineer and former Xian fundie. Now I know the truth: evolution works and earth is way (billions and billions LOL) old!  There could be some truth here but statistics would help tell the tale...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a civil engineer and former Xian fundie. Now I know the truth: evolution works and earth is way (billions and billions LOL) old!  There could be some truth here but statistics would help tell the tale&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tom Buckner		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2008/06/13/engineer-heal-thyself/#comment-9688</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Buckner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 10:54:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/06/13/engineer-heal-thyself/#comment-9688</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Joseph sez:&quot;Created or evolved?I&#039;ll believe some-one who was there at the beginning,namely:God, who does not lie.&quot;Ears that hear and eyes that see? the LORD has made them both.&quot;Proverbs 20:12Yes, well, the Bible, like every other book, was written by Men, and Men do lie. How do we know Jesus rose from the grave? Men told us. How do we know he raised Lazarus from the dead, multiplied loaves and fishes, calmed the waters of the Sea of Galilee, and so on? Matthew, Mark, Luke and John told us. Not God: Men.Now, if these Men had given us physical evidence, that would be another matter...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joseph sez:&#8221;Created or evolved?I&#8217;ll believe some-one who was there at the beginning,namely:God, who does not lie.&#8221;Ears that hear and eyes that see? the LORD has made them both.&#8221;Proverbs 20:12Yes, well, the Bible, like every other book, was written by Men, and Men do lie. How do we know Jesus rose from the grave? Men told us. How do we know he raised Lazarus from the dead, multiplied loaves and fishes, calmed the waters of the Sea of Galilee, and so on? Matthew, Mark, Luke and John told us. Not God: Men.Now, if these Men had given us physical evidence, that would be another matter&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Stephanie Z		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2008/06/13/engineer-heal-thyself/#comment-9687</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stephanie Z]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 10:05:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/06/13/engineer-heal-thyself/#comment-9687</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Napoleon, the ones who believe because they believe are pretty much hopeless. They&#039;re not even any fun to argue with.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Napoleon, the ones who believe because they believe are pretty much hopeless. They&#8217;re not even any fun to argue with.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Citizen Z		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2008/06/13/engineer-heal-thyself/#comment-9686</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Citizen Z]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 09:59:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/06/13/engineer-heal-thyself/#comment-9686</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The Salem Hypothesis as defined at Talk Origins is crap.&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Conjecture that an education in the engineering disciplines forms a predisposition to {SciCre} viewpoints.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;There is zero evidence in favor of this.  The so-called &quot;data points&quot; are merely the results of confirmation bias on a self-selecting group of creationists.  The Oxford paper doesn&#039;t support the Salem hypothesis.  It shows a definite religious slant, which could explain why engineer creationists seem to pop up frequently, but that is &lt;em&gt;entirely&lt;/em&gt; different from saying that an engineering education &quot;forms a predisposition&quot; to creationism.  If you use religious beliefs as a proxy for creationism, you&#039;re going down the road of arguing that an engineering education makes engineering students more religious.  And you&#039;ve only found a correlation between religious beliefs and creationism, not an engineering education and creationism.I am willing to bet engineers are much less likely to be creationists than the general population.  Which is what counts, isn&#039;t it?  If someone gets around to doing a study that shows that, you could argue that an engineering education &lt;em&gt;reduces&lt;/em&gt; predispositions to creationism.  Polls of doctors have shown that there are even doctors who are creationists, at a lower rate than the general public but at a higher rate than biologists. Is it an extraordinary claim to say that engineers would be similar?(PZ Myers&#039; post I&#039;d say has a much better Salem Hypothesis.)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Salem Hypothesis as defined at Talk Origins is crap.</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Conjecture that an education in the engineering disciplines forms a predisposition to {SciCre} viewpoints.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>There is zero evidence in favor of this.  The so-called &#8220;data points&#8221; are merely the results of confirmation bias on a self-selecting group of creationists.  The Oxford paper doesn&#8217;t support the Salem hypothesis.  It shows a definite religious slant, which could explain why engineer creationists seem to pop up frequently, but that is <em>entirely</em> different from saying that an engineering education &#8220;forms a predisposition&#8221; to creationism.  If you use religious beliefs as a proxy for creationism, you&#8217;re going down the road of arguing that an engineering education makes engineering students more religious.  And you&#8217;ve only found a correlation between religious beliefs and creationism, not an engineering education and creationism.I am willing to bet engineers are much less likely to be creationists than the general population.  Which is what counts, isn&#8217;t it?  If someone gets around to doing a study that shows that, you could argue that an engineering education <em>reduces</em> predispositions to creationism.  Polls of doctors have shown that there are even doctors who are creationists, at a lower rate than the general public but at a higher rate than biologists. Is it an extraordinary claim to say that engineers would be similar?(PZ Myers&#8217; post I&#8217;d say has a much better Salem Hypothesis.)</p>
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		<title>
		By: Napoleon Dworkin		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2008/06/13/engineer-heal-thyself/#comment-9685</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Napoleon Dworkin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2008 04:07:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/06/13/engineer-heal-thyself/#comment-9685</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[re: Joseph, of the silken coat: &quot;I&#039;ll believe some-one who was there at the beginning,namely...&quot;Dude: I WAS there at the beginning, and I will be there at the end--but any dumbass who believes that there is an old man in the sky is an ...um,,dumbass. Why? Because I WAS there.The thing on the clouds is an amorphism without basis.You on th other hand mightg well be a traveler in search of a field guide, and Steph, et al are more than willng to help you out...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re: Joseph, of the silken coat: &#8220;I&#8217;ll believe some-one who was there at the beginning,namely&#8230;&#8221;Dude: I WAS there at the beginning, and I will be there at the end&#8211;but any dumbass who believes that there is an old man in the sky is an &#8230;um,,dumbass. Why? Because I WAS there.The thing on the clouds is an amorphism without basis.You on th other hand mightg well be a traveler in search of a field guide, and Steph, et al are more than willng to help you out&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: I'm		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2008/06/13/engineer-heal-thyself/#comment-9684</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[I'm]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 18:34:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/06/13/engineer-heal-thyself/#comment-9684</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I am sure there is a huge difference in %!!!!!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am sure there is a huge difference in %!!!!!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Cherish		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2008/06/13/engineer-heal-thyself/#comment-9683</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cherish]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 16:55:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/06/13/engineer-heal-thyself/#comment-9683</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I think you run into more engineers with these viewpoints based on the simple fact that there are more engineers in general than most of the other sciences and mathematics.  Percentage-wise, I&#039;m not convinced there is much difference.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you run into more engineers with these viewpoints based on the simple fact that there are more engineers in general than most of the other sciences and mathematics.  Percentage-wise, I&#8217;m not convinced there is much difference.</p>
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		<title>
		By: travc		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2008/06/13/engineer-heal-thyself/#comment-9682</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[travc]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 16:42:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/06/13/engineer-heal-thyself/#comment-9682</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Isn&#039;t a creationist BioEngineer really &#039;playing god&#039;?Anyways, learning about complex adaptive systems and learning theory can trounce creationism in at least some cases.  Some more hard-core CS types get this, but most engineers don&#039;t.Engineers are certainly not all creationists, but there is nothing about becoming routine engineer which would lead one to question pre-held creationist beliefs.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t a creationist BioEngineer really &#8216;playing god&#8217;?Anyways, learning about complex adaptive systems and learning theory can trounce creationism in at least some cases.  Some more hard-core CS types get this, but most engineers don&#8217;t.Engineers are certainly not all creationists, but there is nothing about becoming routine engineer which would lead one to question pre-held creationist beliefs.</p>
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		<title>
		By: ivy privy		</title>
		<link>https://gregladen.com/blog/2008/06/13/engineer-heal-thyself/#comment-9681</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ivy privy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 12:04:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/06/13/engineer-heal-thyself/#comment-9681</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I work at a research facility at a high-ranked university. The staff mechanical engineer is a YEC. The faculty adviser for the campus IDEA club (now disbanded) was an engineer.Blaidd Drwg, please do not take offense. The Salem Hypothesis does not say that most engineers are Creationists, but that most Creationists who claim to be scientists are engineers.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I work at a research facility at a high-ranked university. The staff mechanical engineer is a YEC. The faculty adviser for the campus IDEA club (now disbanded) was an engineer.Blaidd Drwg, please do not take offense. The Salem Hypothesis does not say that most engineers are Creationists, but that most Creationists who claim to be scientists are engineers.</p>
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