Comments on: Tatiana Is Telling us Something

By: Greg Laden

Greg Laden — Sun, 30 Dec 2007 08:57:23 +0000

TSK: Good information thanks. Sorry if I was a little testy… I resist having what I work on dictated by reactions to what I work on. That may seem funny but it actually makes a lot of sense.Anyway, yes, the non-carnivores are often underrated.I’ve guided a number of African tours, and it is necessary to manage the tourists. I suppose having them believe that Babmbi-on-up is dangerous aves lives and trouble. People are pretty much automatically afraid of lions.My first encounter with a wild lion was at night and the lion was less than one meter from me. Everything I had ever learned about lions went out the window at that moment, and I became a person who was afraid of lions, and have been ever since. I “worked with them” (a difficult to define term … may be better “lived in their midst” because I only did a little actual research with them) quite a bit after and never once became less afraid.Oh, I’m babbling. … must get coffee drive 300 miles. See you in a couple/few days

By: TSK

TSK — Sun, 30 Dec 2007 05:03:34 +0000

> In a comment that is a reply to a comment on a post I’m> not going to document this for you … but I am not> speaking out of any orifice than a reasonably well> educated mouth in this matter.I hope you keep this in mind before dismissing another opinion as “anecdotal evidence” when you don’t like it…;-)…but anyway Durrheim and Legat confirm your experience.In “Risk to tourists posed by wild mammals in South Africa”there were 7 killings and 14 attacks on tourists during a 10 year period:Killings – 4 lions, 2 hippos, 1 elephantAttacks – 5 hippo, 3 buffalo, 2 rhino,1 lion/leopard/elephant/zebraFits to your experience. But the numbers may be skewed in favor of the lions because of the land/water ratio, e.g. in Niassa National Reserve (Mozambique), a swampy area, crocs killed 57 people compared to 34 by lions (according to a report by Begg 2007, no data on hippos).But my main point was that the danger of wild animals does not depend on being a carnivore, but on their wildness.With the information of Freddy the Pig I digged up the name of Kenton Carnegie, a 22 year old student who was killedby a pack in Saskatchewan, Canada.

By: Freddy the Pig

Freddy the Pig — Sun, 30 Dec 2007 02:44:25 +0000

Here in the Province of Alberta, Canada if a bear attack is considered defensive ie a hiker surprising momma bear and cubs, the authorities usually close off the area so there are no more incidents and leave the bear alone. However, if the attack is considered predatory, the bear is killed.For some reason, a female grizzly withh cubs doesn’t consider a hiker to be food when the hiker goes down after recieving a good swat or two. I find this surprising sincee the Eastern Slopes of the Rockies are not great bear habitat and I would expect them to take advantage of any extra protein and calories they could get.

By: Joseph O'Sullivan

Joseph O'Sullivan — Sun, 30 Dec 2007 01:54:11 +0000

Great white sharks are known to be selective feeders. They eat marine mammals selectively and choose food items that give them maximum payoff during seasonal abundance. For example they don’t feed on sea otters because they have through evolutionary pressure focused on seals and sea lions.As far as zoos pushing conservation it depends on the zoo. My experience with zoos is limited to New York City’s Wildlife Conservation Society which does a great deal of work on science and conservation throughout the world. I can’t say either way if zoo visitors are influenced to support conservation, but conservation is a clearly part of their exhibits.If we expand the argument to aquariums, aquariums like Monterrey Bay have been successful in public campaigns. The efforts to get swordfish off restaurant menus worked in part because of aquariums involvement. It worked because public aquariums don’t have the same reputation as extremist the environmental groups have. Chefs were more receptive to the environmental groups when aquariums joined.

By: Gerry L

Gerry L — Sat, 29 Dec 2007 23:52:57 +0000

As a long-time zoo volunteer, I can’t count the number of times I have seen people lift strollers up onto the railing of the tiger exhibit to give the kid a better look (or the cat a better look at the kid?) People dangle kids over wolf and bear exhibits and hold small children up to the mesh so they can feed leaves to a gibbon (a very aggressive gibbon).I don’t think it is only a disney-fication of animals. I think Americans are too used to being protected from themselves. Many people figure “If it’s so dangerous I wouldn’t be able to do it.”A few months ago I was at the Grand Canyon — just a few weeks after a little girl went over the edge to her death. There is nothing there to keep you from taking a step too far. We are so “civilized” that some people have no concept of natural danger. (But they’re scared to death of terrorists.)

By: Greg Laden

Greg Laden — Sat, 29 Dec 2007 21:16:21 +0000

Adult male rabbits will fight to the death now and then.

By: Timeby

Timeby — Sat, 29 Dec 2007 19:55:44 +0000

Justin Moretti; Re your question “…rabbits kill each other (perhaps not realistic – any lapine experts out there?)”I am not an ‘expert’ but I have raised rabbits (for meat – excellent by the way). I have observed that, if you leave a male in a cage with young, the male (and sometimes the female without the males presence) will kill the young. I have even seen results that make me think that the males, at least, ate some of the young’s flesh!

By: wilsonth

wilsonth — Sat, 29 Dec 2007 18:52:10 +0000

No, I am afraid I haven’t been to the one you are talking about; although, I can imagine what it is like by what you are implying. And I am also on the fence about the benefits vs costs of zoos, our own here in HIlo is pretty bad… Still this is about the relationship between humans and predatory animals, and your proposed question of “Why do people not get this?” I would be hesitant to completely blame disneyification and exempt our relationship with “man’s best of friend.” My own experience is as a premed student who volunteers in the emergency room on the big island of Hawaii. Dogs attacks are regular in any ER for a lot of reason though here we also have some rare cases involving people getting attacked after trying to be overly affectionate to a feral doggie. About the domestication vs caging issue I just don’t think it is quite that simple. Mainly a lot of people just cage their own dogs and it is therefore not surprising that when these caged carnivores do escape they cause tragedies. While at the same time a lot of trained wild animals seemingly give the image of domestication. The questions seems to be about which carnivorous predators should we trust, and factoring in pets the lines get fuzzier.Also I am responding to “Officially, an animal goes from one that need not be killed on sight to one that must be killed, even if it is well caged. In other words, the animal are treated the same way that people are treated. Innocent (no death sentence) until proven guilty, but if proven guilty, executed as a killer. There is no gray area, no fine line, in this reasoning.”And I do agree with you and think this is a great post. We are talking about the relationship between people and animals where hardly a discrete line exists and issues such as killing, predation, wildness and domestication become much more entangled. I think you are claiming that Tatiana was a victim of us inappropriately projecting our own guilty/not guilty system of law onto a wild animal, and therefor after the attack Tatiana should not necessarily have been put down. Which I agree with. Is this sort of what you were intending? And for the record, I really do otherwise like dogs, its just that their wild nature can come out sometimes around strange smelling visitors, or if they have been improperly raised. I am just unsure about whether after an attack a dog should or shouldn’t be put down, and can we come up with a fair system that can include all incidents of animal/man attacks?

By: muhr

muhr — Sat, 29 Dec 2007 17:29:18 +0000

“Because people don’t think of themselves as meat.”Maybe the zoos should take a page from the law which requires cigarette companies to put graphic images of cigarette related diaseases on their cigarette packs. They should put up a few pictures of what a human looks like after a run in with for example a lion.Of course, I’m only joking.

By: Greg Laden

Greg Laden — Sat, 29 Dec 2007 16:43:56 +0000

Wil: Good point about canids vs. cats. But, one could say that it would make sense that domestic dogs be treated differently than caged wild animals. Caging tigers does not domesticate them.It may even be the case that we are not so much treating wild (caged or not) carnivores like “people” as much as we are treating them like dogs, in this sense.Regarding the Disney effect: Have you been, say, to the Milwaukee County Zoo?