Comments on: Creationist’s Reign Ends in Kentucky

By: greg laden

greg laden — Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:35:48 +0000

Scott,I think your program looks great. Very challenging. Hopefully many of the kids who experience this sort of thing will decide to be teachers!

By: Scott Hatfield, OM

Scott Hatfield, OM — Mon, 12 Nov 2007 00:12:27 +0000

The price of liberty is eternal vigilance, and not just as to what the law says, but what the politicians and other state employees (including teachers) do. I agree with you, Greg: if formally endorsed within the curriculum, the 'Wedge' or other ID statements could be cat's paws' for sectarian religious views entering the curriculum.But you know what? Any number of things could be such, and there's no reason to single out ID or creationism outside of the science curriculum for special treatment, since as I understand it that could also run afoul of the Establishment Clause.In that context, that makes what I'm trying to promote at my school all the more dangerous in principle. But I think our students are crying out for opportunities to 'connect the dots' between what's in the curriculum and what's not, especially where religion and philosophy are concerned. I invite any and all readers to click on the link, read about my effort, and offer criticism or comments on my blog.

By: John Pieret

John Pieret — Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:28:20 +0000

Well, my point has been mostly about the Constitution and how it works, not so much about what I’d like to see taught. But I did say “a legitimate version of ‘teach the controversy’,” which pretty much rules out the DI’s brand. They want to dispute the science without scientific justification.However, it’s a simple fact that the Constitution does not forbid teaching bad science or teaching science badly. Freedom includes the freedom to be wrong … and to argue for the wrong.What I’m talking about is what I see as the constitutional necessity of letting the larger issues be aired, as part of the overall philosophical/religious discussion within society, and how best to do that with the least harm done. Your understandable desire to avoid any possible inclusion of a view you (and I) think is wrong is not constitutional grounds to keep it completely out of schools.

By: greg laden

greg laden — Sun, 11 Nov 2007 20:09:40 +0000

John,What you are saying makes sense and sounds really great. But you are missing the point. The purpose of the controversy is to have a debate that can be brought into the schools, to form a context to promote Christian fundamentalism. That is the reason the controversy exists as it does. Your desire for openness, dialog, teaching and learning turn out to be putty in their hands.This is the point of the Wedge Strategy.

By: John Pieret

John Pieret — Sun, 11 Nov 2007 19:55:20 +0000

There is a difference between teaching something is true and teaching that a controversy exists. Wherever you wind up putting it in the curriculum, the very existence and nature of this cultural war is a fit study for public education under the Constitution. Arguments for and against each side can (and, IMHO, should) be aired in a fair manner within a public educational system in a pluralistic society. Those cases you talk about never put science in some sort of philosophically sancrosact position above any questioning. Indeed, if you read Edwards v. Aguillard you'll see that quite the contrary is true.The fact that some/many people hold creationism as a religious view in opposition to science and the arguments they make in support of it was never banned from being taught. Those are objective facts of our society. The only thing that was banned was the religious position that creationism is science. That is a truth claim about a specific religious view that other religious views don't make and which those other religions and science itself dispute. In short, the state would be taking a position on the truth and/or falsity of a religious view if it teaches creationism alongside evolution as if the former is science. That is what is prohibited.However, there is nothing to prevent the state from teaching about the views of various segments of society and the arguments pro and con for each as long as it doesn't take sides. Sure it's fraught with opportunities for bad education but so is when the state teaches about economics, poverty, justice, history, civic morality and all the other things we fight over.When I said any such instruction should "go beyond" fundamentalist objections to science, I meant it should air more than those two positions in any discussion of the public's attitude towards science and should include the multiple arguments for and against each. The dispute over science, like the culture wars, is multi-sided.

By: greg laden

greg laden — Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:38:35 +0000

John: Can you clarify? The courts have made the manner in which the constitution applies here. Nobody is waiting for anything to happen. It has happened.Or are you saying that the entire battle has to start fresh for each topic? First science, then social studies? That may be true to a certain extent. Certainly, Dover, for example, was about science. But the promotion of religion in public schools is well understood with piles of case law as being inappropriate.I don’t think a curriculum can “go beyond” fundamentalist objections. The very way that fundamentalist “objections” are worded makes them utterly inappropriate. They are no more appropriate as a basis for curriculum than insistence that bigfoot may be real is appropriate for the basis of curriculum.

By: John Pieret

John Pieret — Sun, 11 Nov 2007 15:26:55 +0000

... rather than telling me how great it is to teach about fundamentalism and fundamentalist beliefs, tell me how to do it under the present conditions, with something like a quarter of the teachers (potentially) waiting for the opening to impose their particular religious beliefs on the students in their classrooms.

Sorry, the Constitution doesn't work that way. The government doesn't have to prove it is going to do things in a constitutional manner before it does them. Those who object have to show that it isn't doing the right thing after the fact.Don't get me wrong either ... I'm not saying this is the best of all possible worlds. It is simply the way our government works under the Constitution.I think it was Americans for Separation of Church and State that was trying to create a model curriculum for dealing with the interface of science and religion in K-12 education. Naturally, it should go beyond fundamentalist objections and include mainstream religions' views towards philosophical natualism and even include post-modernism (shudder!). Ultimately, you cannot fairly force people to pay for an educational system that refuses to even address their deepest beliefs.

By: Greg Laden

Greg Laden — Sun, 11 Nov 2007 12:23:34 +0000

Most of what John and Scott are saying is laudable and reasonable. What you are missing is the actual experience of the classroom … what actually happens when a fundamentalist teacher gets a green light. It is unfortunate, very unfortunate, that a large percentage of public school teachers cannot be trusted to not turn what may look from the outside like reasonable, thoughtful, interesting, mind-broadening curriculum into a bible lesson.The wedge strategy masquerades as exactly the kind of open, educational, let’s all be smart verbiage that otherwise sounds very good.Think of it this way. A curriculum that examines religion across cultures, that criticizes science in a fair and just manner, that examines human history including beliefs of origins, and so on, is like an excellent, highly recommended menu item at a fine restaurant. Who would not want it.The Wedge Strategy, which is in the hands of at least a quarter of the public school teachers in this country, is like a really bad staph infestation discovered by the health department in that very restaurant.You can say all the nice things you want about that restaurant’s menu. But you can’t eat there.It is not the evolutionists/scientists who have created this situation. The system was broken by the religious zealots. But we all have to live with it.Now, don’t assume that I’m simply against any kind of teaching of anything or everything. I agree that controversies can and should be addressed, etc. But rather than telling me how great it is to teach about fundamentalism and fundamentalist beliefs, tell me how to do it under the present conditions, with something like a quarter of the teachers (potentially) waiting for the opening to impose their particular religious beliefs on the students in their classrooms.Russell: Were these creation stories always and everywhere taken as literally as they are by modern fundamentalists?Good question. How would we know? What difference would it make? Would it be the case that if one group does not heartily believe in their myth, and another does, that we assign different meanings to them in the classroom? Do all fundamentalists believe in their fundamentalism as much as they seem to as a group? The answer to that is absolutely no. There is a fair amount of variation in my experience.

By: Scott Hatfield, OM

Scott Hatfield, OM — Sun, 11 Nov 2007 10:38:54 +0000

I agree with John.Also, Greg, I have to point out that many atheists of my experience are much better-read on the Bible than the believers who often demonize non-belief. It is ignorance, rather than knowledge, that tends to promote the sort of reflex-action religion of the fundies. I have to think that while there is a risk to a comparative religion classes, in that they might reinforce the sense of privilege that many Christians have, there is also a benefit: knowledge and a broader context in which to view claims of faith can only make the move (if it occurs) to abandon faith more well-informed.

By: John Pieret

John Pieret — Sun, 11 Nov 2007 10:12:42 +0000

What can be constitutionally taught is a legitimate version of “teach the controversy;” arguments a broad range of religious (and non-religious) people have against any hegemony of science as the only way to view the world.Kent Greenawalt, in his book, Does God Belong in Public Schools?http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/rncse_content/vol25/5787_idoes_god_belong_in_public_s_12_30_1899.asp... and in his shorter article, “Establishing Religious Ideas: Evolution, Creationism, and Intelligent Design” that covers some of the same ground and is available on the web:www.utexas.edu/law/faculty/conlawtheory/Greenawalt.pdf… goes over the constitutional questions well. And, no matter how we might feel, there is nothing in the constitution that forbids teaching ideas that oppose science.