A vaguely framed accusation has come to light, here, that Biologist PZ Myers may have been behind an act of vandalism alleged to have occurred at the 2006 Twin Cities Creation Science Fair, at Har Mar Mall, in Roseville Minnesota.
Ross Olson, local anti-gay, anti-choice, anti-evolution poet and China expert revealed his suspicions as part of broader remarks on this year’s recent attack by atheists on the TCCSF children:
…Last year P.Z.Myers had blasted creation as usual
and our fair in particular. A small group of young adults,
I cannot say if they were inspired or incited by him, tried
to steal one of the exhibits and ran into a bookstore where
they were trapped and eventually gave it back.
The veracity of this report has not been established.
34 Responses to ““PZ Myers Incites Vandals” …claims Twin Cities man”
- 1 Pingback on Mar 17th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
Yeah, but who needs veracity when God, or Dick Cheney, et al are on your side?
“we don’t need no stinking facts!”
If the pics of the science fair ( and the irrational accusations, which might well hinge on legal libel, as well as slander)aren’t hilarious and kind of sad, go to the link
http://www.tccsa.tc/adventure/2006_dig/
the page that says ” dinosaur digs” where the “prime directive of the dig is to build up the faithand knowledge of young people….so they can give an account of why the bible is true…”
and the second objective–get this–”the bones are secondary to this goal…”
and then they deny the facts of the process of fossilization ….
I love it…the bones( evolutionary evidence) are SECONDARY…..
But I am certain that the Primary legal definition of libel includes published definitions or inferences about the nature or facts of an individual that are provably false and thus libelous in nature.The only defense to libel is the truth: Not G-ds truth, but the truth, as defined by the law of man.
I cannot say if they were inspired or incited by him
Then why say anything at all? Is that slander or libel? Or that favorite tactic, poisoning the well?
It’s ridiculous.
None too bright, I might add.
“God’s promise to the Chinese” LOL!
“the amazing correlation between the ancient Chinese characters and the Biblical understanding of God, creation, the fall and sacrifice for sin”
Oh yes. Right. Would “barking mad” be a reasonable description? Not only unethical, but certifiable.
The comment is vague, in a sneaky,dumb kind of way, but designed(unintelligently) to sound smart, but are remarkably libelous regardless. He says: “I cannot say if they were inspired or incited by him”
the first part ” I cannot say…” is an attempt at trying to say ” it is my opinion, but I don’t want to call it my opinion, because I don’t know libel law”, but what it really says is ” I don’t know if Meyers did this, but now willingly, deliberately, and knowingly INFER” that blah blah blah he did”….which is indeed libel;-)
There are some strange coincidental and completely unrelated words in the Chinese language that the Christians are currently distorting into their own meanings–words like devil, heaven, etc. The Chinese have a concept of a higher place in the sky where the dragon flys, and the Christians tell them it really is heaven in the G-d sense…and also they have seized on the DNA evidence of a hominid Eve, and distorted it into evidence of a “biblical Eve”
( covered on this blog and elsewhere)
p.s.Howling mad? as in howler monkey mad?
Um–
I’m an attorney, and though defamation law is by no means my specialty, I think I can say with substantial confidence that Olson’s bleatings about PZ, though they are silly and asinine, are certainly not libel. (They also aren’t slander, but that’s more of a dictionary issue.)
I think PZ is taking the right tack on this.
(…Which is not to say that Greg’s taking the wrong one.)
ok….no more playing late night armchair lawyer for me;-(
BAD MONKEY…BAD MONKEY;-)But, couldn’t one make the case, just a little bit> humor me?So exactly how far does Ross have to go to be libelous?
Interesting discussion notes that internet libel law is ‘far from settled”
http://ojr.org/ojr/law/1087423868.php
I don’t think you can really be libelous on a blog. Its like eating grapes. You can’t eat them in the store before you buy them (though people do, mostly Christians, I suspect) but you can eat them from your own refrigerator. A blog is like a refrigerator….
Of course you can be libelous on a blog, but in this case there is no damage done (a creationist saying negative things about PZ? comeone, the DI attacks him every chance they get), so it cannot be considered libel.
Will cold water freeze first on a blog too?
Bob
“DI attacks him every chance they get”
And he attacks them every chance he gets. If we were to move it into a court situation it would only focus on such silly things, rather than the more important one (Fighting creationism/evolution every step of the way, depending on which side you’re on)
Still, stealing a little kid’s exhibit is silly and does not help at all, but hiding behind kids is even more silly and shows the strenght of the creationism side.
I don’t care what the creationists say about me. The really burning question is the identity of the bookstore that the wanna-be thieves ran into, because if they nabbed an exhibit and then ran into that crappy Christian/Bible book store in the Har Mar Mall, they’re too stupid to have possibly had anything to do with me.
I want to know more details of the dramatic pursuit, capture, and abject surrender of these people. I presume they got names? It was probably more excitement than the sleepy ol’ Creation “Science” Fair has seen in years!
They got it all wrong, those vandals didn’t run into a book store, they ran from the school book depository and into a theater.
If you don’t care about what they say, Myers, why then do you bleat beyond ad nauseaum against them?
It’s like that old canard regarding the homophobe: He’s so afraid that he is infact a closet gay that he compensates by spending all of his time berating homosexuality.
Come out of the closet, PZ. Admit it. You have a closet full of mailings from the DI that you sweatily pore over in the middle of the night, desperately wishing you could join the DI, but you fear the wrath of your sycophants.
So if the homosexual thing is a canard, then how is that a valid metaphor?
PZ: I was thinking the same thing. It depends on where the science fair was set up. This year it was right near Barns and Noble, so to get to the North Star Bible Bookstore you would have had to make the sharp left turn and waded through a long hallway full of people buying and selling Baseball Memorabilia. If, however, it was set up in the South Hallway, the run to the North Star Bookstore would have been direct and quick.
The latter is of course the very, very funny prospect.
A small group of students who are both outraged and not yet accustom to seeing this combined abuse of science and children can’t help themselves. They put together a hair-brained scheme to disrupt the science fair, and they pick the exhibit that they find most offensive.
Perhaps the one on “Giants Who Walked the Earth” or “Was the Arc Also a Big Battery.”
So they snatch the exhibit and run way, Ross Olson in hot pursuit. He is screaming appropriately modified bible verses:
“Be not unrighteous, ye effeminate abusers of thy selves!!!”
“If ye steal an ox, or a sheep, ye shall return it with five more sheep..!!!”
“I am the gate for the sheep. All who came before were thieves and robbers, but the sheep … ah… they enter through me and are .. ah.. thus are saved… ”
But they duck into a store and find refuge between some shelves. Then realize they are in the Bible Book Store.
In fact, they are in the Self Help section
“How to Take Up the Fat of the Sin Offering Bull: … and save the entrails…”
“Turtle Doves and Pigeons: A young ladies guide to her first period”
“Mother Daughter Father Son: Demystifying Leviticus 18″
“The Flawless Female Goat: An owner’s guide”
“The Idiot’s Guide to Smiting”
“The Art of the Grain Offering … with 60 new low carb recipes”
“Clean and Unclean … The Yin Yang of Hot Dishes”
And it dawns on them that they have taken a wrong turn somewhere…
If you don’t care about what they say, Myers, why then do you bleat beyond ad nauseaum against them?
It’s like that old canard regarding the homophobe: He’s so afraid that he is infact a closet gay that he compensates by spending all of his time berating homosexuality.
Come out of the closet, PZ. Admit it. You have a closet full of mailings from the DI that you sweatily pore over in the middle of the night, desperately wishing you could join the DI, but you fear the wrath of your sycophants.
Hoody, were you listening? PZ said he doesn’t care what they say about him. He cares a lot what they say about science in general and evolution in particular. He goes on and on about the creationists because what they claim is wrong, and alternately ignorant and dishonest.
The bit about homophobia is hardly a canard. It isn’t fully established in psychology, but it is a feasible explanation for some of the irrational hatred people have for gays. It would certainly explain why some of the more serious gay-bashers end up coming out of the closet.
PZ repeatedly and openly criticizes people like the DI who are organized, well-funded, and in their own way, relentless. You think he’s afraid of the people who comment on his blog?? Your sense of proportions might be in need of some fine-tuning here.
Its obvious: “Like a dog returns to [eat] his vomit, so returns a fool to his folly”
So we can infer that the rabbit probably evolved from a dog, just like fools did, and thus it eats its own poop, because it has obviously taken evolutionary cues from dogs AND fools…..
Philogenesis 26:11
DAWGS
/\
/ \
Foo’s –>Wabbits
Here are some tips “from G-d” on when and when not to rebuke a fool–just in case anyone knows one of those…..nearby, in this debate;-)http://www.ibelieve.com/m_1695398/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#1723111
Hey, was Leon subtly bashing gays up there? Sometimes a canard is JUST a canard…
cmf…I think you meant hoody, right? hehehehe;-)
yup…’pologies….see reference to rebuking fool; me in this case;-)
Barking mad.
Howling mad.
*ponders*
Yes, you’re right, the primate analogy is obviously more appropriate.
John,3/15: Unless you accept the word of the lord in Philogenesis 26:11, where we see that fools are clearly descended from dogs, in which case, you are indeed correct! “Barking mad”;-)
What bothers me most about this is the CONSTANT, INCESSANT hypocrisy by these “Christians” such as Olson.
Forget about the legal ramifications, (I assume there are none), but look at the ethical consequences of implying that PZ “may or may not” have organized a troupe of vandals.
These ID proponents have totally forsaken the very scriptures they claim to be defending. Having no knowledge to base his statements, he “bears false witness” with such aplomb as to boggle the religious mind.
As an atheist, bearing false witness, bothers me. Why is it not so for Mr. Olson?
It is one thing to fight for one’s belief, even at times when that debate gets a bit raucous. It is another to violate one’s own principles, the very principles at stake, in the process.
They have so abandoned Christ in their zeal to destroy science and discredit scientists. For them, nothing is left.
I thought Philogenesis was the study of the origin of stamp collecting.
*confused now*
MpM - Yes, agreed. I have known two devout Christians who were not hypocrits and bullies. All the others have been the biggest bastards I have ever known.
Most moderates I know are actually closet agnostics or atheists. They’re really lapsed, they just play the charade of keeping up the pretence.
The more science advances, the harder it is to convince themselves that the pretence is worth maintaining.
Science is winning the middle ground, and it will never convince the bastards, so I don’t know why PZ bothers. But it’s his choice, no skin off my nose.
PZ Meyer is the anti-christ. The Twin Cities should consider themselves lucky that all he did was inspire a few yoots to steal a book or two. I’m sure he has more diabolical plans. This is just the tip on the tip of the iceberg.
First, the LAST thing that PZ would have wanted to do was to inspire something like this. It probably gave the (Un)science (Un)fair ten times more publicity than it would have received otherwise.
John: I don’t think you can call the moderates ‘closet atheists or agnostics.’ I think what they really are is secularists who really don’t pay much attention to religion, who may attend services a couple of times a year (Christmas and Easter for Christians, Passover and Yom Kippur for Jews), and who, if you ask them, will give the culturally approved answers of “Yes, I believe in God. Yes I accept Christianity.” Maybe they even follow some of the rules of their religion, but in fact it has no real meaning in their lives. (I think the large number of people who claim to be creationists in America comes from the same base. They have never studied science, don’t give a &*@! about the question, but have vague memories of their upbringing and answer that way.)
John: Philogeny is the book in the Bible that contains the secret mysterious origins and a philogeny of the early philanderers who created the original tribe mythology–”Philatelics” is the study of Philadelphia–and stamp collecting is just called “stamp collecting” these days, and it is only done by dangerous, precociously intelligent kids
I cannot say if PZ Myers bathes in the blood of innocent christian children to maintain his unnatural existence, buth there are a disturbingly large number of missing children in the Minnesota area.
Not that, you know, I’m implying anything here…
Sophist: you WILL BE quantified as ” absolutely nuts” here. Maybe you should study the cultist born agains or s/th. else?
Greg: this is the WIERDEST COMMENT EVER on you blog.
Sophist:MAYBE YOU SHOULD FOCUS ON ” LOST AND USELESS FBI mitigating circumstances THEORIES,” SOMEWHERE ELSE?