Home Schooling Creationist Science Fair 2007
Published by Greg February 18th, 2007 in Creationism, Commentary, Science Education
Well, Amanda, Julia and I stopped by the 2007 Home Schooling Creationist Science Fair over at the unique Har Mar Mall in Roseville, Minnesota. Very few of the shoppers passing through the mall seemed to take much of an interest. There were a couple of moms showing each exhibit to their children, reading off the relevant parts … “Evolutionists think fossils take millions of years to form, but creationists have shown that this is not true…” and so on.
Science is probably one of the hardest subjects to teach. Many students just don’t see the connection between abstract science in textbooks and how it works and affects them in real life. That’s where a variety of science lesson plans can help teach science to your students more effectively.
The 15 or so exhibits demonstrated a wide range of levels, from what must have been pre-school to at least one clearly done by the parents (that one, present yesterday during an earlier trip to the mall, but missing today) compared the affective behavior of childcare-kids vs. home school kids.) Most of the exhibits had a quote from “the scriptures” related in some way to the exhibit. For instance, my favorite: a very young child’s exhibit (I’m guessing) on bunnies. The Scripture: “God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be” (I Corinthians 2:1912:18). Of course, I Corinthians 12 is about the unity of the spirit and the body, and that bit about the arrangements of the body parts is part of a sort of mini parable in which each part of the body stupidly asks “If I am not an eye, I am not part of the body?” and so on. So note, fellow rationalists. As annoying as it is when creationists “Quote Mine” from the scientific literature, take heart. They don’t get in much trouble for doing that, but when the quote mine from The Bible, well, I assume they are going to Hell for that. What goes around comes around.
Anyway, the “Bunny” science fair entry was my favorite not because of the misquotation of scripture, but because of the hypothesis being tests:
Question: What do bunnies do?
Hypothesis: God made bunnies with many parts that work together so they can do lots of things.
We all had to laugh when, on the way home, Amanda slammed on the breaks to avoid flattening a bunny tearing across the street. “Well, praise the lord, all the parts seem to be working…”
Many, really the majority, of the exhibits were just regular (mostly half baked) science fair exhibits that had some scripture slapped onto them. In other words, despite the occasional exhibit clearly motived by pure creationist philosophy, most of the kids ended up doing some kind of science or another. Funny, I don’t remember ANY of the 200 exhibits or so at the Brimhall Fair (see this on Julia’s entry) held earlier in the year just down the street at a Real School addressing creationist ideas. But when the kids enter into a creationist fair, they can’t seem to help themselves from doing some actual science.
Nonetheless, the overall quality was unimpressive, as one would expect from the home school environment.
After my first visit to the fair, I swooped into Barnes and Noble and bought myself a copy of Dawkins “The God Delusion.” … I just needed to do something. After this trip, I think I’ll just take a shower.
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Please note that the car, including its brakes, has been designed. What does that say about the probable origin of the rabbit?
Just kidding,
Carsten
I was surprised when you said that some of the kids did actual science.
Wasn’t the whole point of this fair supposed to be for them to use the bible
and fake science (well, of course they won’t admit it’s fake), to show people
that a god created everything? Obviously, real science can’t be used to prove
their claims, so I wonder if the kids who had real science projects got a
failing grade.
Sad to see that even the real science projects weren’t very good. Not
surprising, but sad.
“Please note that the car, including its brakes, has been designed.
What does that say about the probable origin of the rabbit?”
–Carsten
It was made by GM?
Abeja:
Yes, indeed! There was clearly a bias in how first/second/third prizes were handed out. There was a bias against the science and in favor of the creationist projects.
I hope this exhibit did not consist of several bunnies that had been subjected to amputations and various creative reattachments that demonstrated other ways in which the parts might have been arranged.
Wasn’t the whole point of this fair supposed to be for them to use the bible
and fake science (well, of course they won’t admit it’s fake), to show people
that a god created everything?
Well, the kids had to sneak some real science into there. Otherwise, none of the projects would have worked!
Rick: Right, or, perhaps, have been … interesting?!?!?
I assume none of these homeschoolers were involved in that particular fair.
Point being that young earth creationists are a minority of the homeschooling population, even if do manage to get a disproportionate amount of attention.
Living in Canada, I’ve never met a single person who was ‘home-schooled’ (Mind you I’ve spent over a 3rd of my life in University) though I know that it technically can be done.
When I see things like The Alliance for the Separation of School and State it scares the Gould out of me. It seems that their only agenda is to be able to teach their kids whatever they want, (This being quite different from their stated goals of ‘protecting children’ and ‘improving their education’).
“Nonetheless, the overall quality was unimpressive, as one would expect from the home school environment.”
That statement is really quite offensive. My children are home schooled in an atheist home and are quite good at science. I would suggest the poor work is more a function of the soft minds created by making the Bible your primary science text.
JerryL
I am aware of the fact that there are a small number of children who are home schooled in a quality setting. But it is very small. Most home schooling is religiously and politically motivated and poorly conducted. You are absolutely correct: The poor work is a function of the soft minds created by making the Bible the primary science (etc.) text. But that is the norm for home schooling, thus I expected low quality and indeed was not disappointed. Except of course for the fact that this whole thing is very disappointing!
For me to say that it is expected that the products be of low quality is in no way meant to offend you and is not an inherently offensive statement. It is a generalization based on facts. The world would be better off if home schooling was done very differently, but that would involve doing it in a way that the majority of home schoolers would not go along with. Therefore, the only way to minimize this particular form of child abuse may, unfortunately, be to simply disallow it. That would be throwing some very precious but rare babies out with a large amount of stinking, fetid bathwater.
Also … and I’m going to offend you again so hold on … I happen to believe you, that your kids are brilliant, etc. But why should I? I’m sure the vast majority of parents who have home schooled their children would also say that their kids got an education equivalent to or better than in school, yet this is very unlikely to be true. There isn’t a way of really knowing this just from the claims of the parents.
We don’t even let trained teachers make those claims … there is all sorts of independent testing and oversight.
Given that home education is about as prevalent in Canada as it is in the US (1-2% of school age population), I’d venture that the odds on you having never met a homeschooler are slim to none. It’s much more likely that you’ve met several and just didn’t ID them as homeschoolers because they didn’t fit into your stereotype.
Lynn and I did a little “subculture jamming” when we visited this “science fair” yesterday. We added actual information to some free Ken “Dr. Dino” Hovind DVDs that were being offered for free at one exhibit.
We arrived early enough on Sunday that no one was there yet (all at church, I guess), and when I saw the stack of Dr. Dino BS DVDs (I’ve seen these, and it’s literally the worst of the worst creationist nonsense), I just took them all. Lynn, being sensible and good, asked if I thought it was ethical to do that. I responded that if they had left out poisoned apples I wouldn’t just leave them, and this is funcitonally the same thing. So I carried the DVDs with me while we looked at the exhibits (Greg’s review of them is accurate–some were poignantly cute, a couple seemed to apply the scientific method pretty well, and a couple would just break a science-lover’s heart with their loud-and-proud idiocy). When we’d seen everything, I was standing holding the stack of DVDs and contemplating just throwing them in the trash can, and then I hesitated. Would that be an act of censorship, something I find even more distasteful than stupidity? I thought it would be. Lynn commented that the fact that all her DVDs had been taken might in fact just inspire the little home-schooled creationist to whip up more, thinking her strategy was working. We discussed merely defacing the DVDs (they were PC-burned copies and weren’t sealed or anything), but that also amounted to censorship, which makes me very uncomfortable. Then Lynn said something inspiringly brilliant: “Too bad our side doesn’t have some stickers like the ones they tried to put on the Georgia text books, warning kids about the contents….except ours would be real.” And so the solution was suggested. We took the DVDs with us into the coffee shop inside Barnes and Noble and wrote on the back of the paper cover insert, “For good information on the fact of evolution, please visit talkorigins.org.
OK, it was a minor, easily ignored step. But it did satisfy our desire to avoid censorship on the one hand, and our inability to let utter nonsense go unchallenged on the other hand.
COD: I’m a college teacher, and I pay close attention to the backgrounds of my students. I’ve met a number of home schoolers. Probably, I’ve met more than I think, as you say, but it just isn’t true that I’m blind to the issue.
I would love to see a broader discussion of this topic!
COD,
“The Home School Legal Defense Association, an advocacy group, estimates that American home-schooling is a $750 million dollar industry that could hit $1 billion in the next few years. The Virginia-based group says evangelical Christians account for 70 percent of that market.”
http://pewforum.org/news/display.php?NewsID=4741
“According to a federal survey, 72 percent of homeschooling parents say one of their primary motivations is to provide stronger moral and religious instruction.”
http://www.365gay.com/Newscon0.....vangel.htm
Neither of these specifically mention evolution and creationism, but I’d say it doesn’t take much of a leap…
“I’d venture that the odds on you having never met a homeschooler are slim to none.”
This is quite probably true. Though I’ve never personally spoken to someone who told me that they were home-schooled.
I’d like to be explained, from the advocates of home-schooling here, what the benefits of homeschooling are? Most arguments homeschooling that I’ve seen are usually along the lines of “I want to be able to decide what my children should learn”, though I’ll admit that I haven’t read very much. Why make the decision that public education inappropriate for your children?
Greg,
My daughter was home-schooled in third and eighth grade. In sixth grade she won 1st place for junior high in the Washington state science fair. This was a serious science fair sponsored by Intel. Homeschooling was a response to the crappy educational environment in second and seventh grade. Once a student is old enough and has demonstrated advanced ability an alternate to traditional high school is available. In Washington its called Course Enhancement and later Running Start. She is currently in her second year at a local community college rather than stuck in non-challenging 11th grade. There is a lot of non-theist based home schooling occurring, you just don’t see it much because the Fundies get all the attention. Homeschooling isn’t all bad. We would have possibly lost our daughter to the worst of American culture without it.
I would like to see head to head comparison of Creationist projects with real science fair projects. This so that just a few of the Fundie parents can see what real science student work is, and maybe learn the horrible disservice that they are doing to their children. But then, I’m an optimist.
Ken
Greg, my comment was directed at carlman23 - who stated he’d never met a homeschooler. Sorry I wasn’t clear on that.
The problem is that it is hard to get data on homeschoolers. Six or states don’t even track homeschoolers, and the others all track to varying levels. Plus, what exactly are we tracking? Many of the more left wing homeschoolers tend to be from the anti-testing free spirited side of the education debate, and thus don’t place much if any emphasis on standardized testing. I know homeschoolers throw around all sorts of numbers about how much better we do on standardized tests than the school kids, but really, who cares? Once you are out of high school or college nobody will ever care again what your CAT-9 test scores were in 8th grade. Also, comparing a self-selected population like homeschoolers versus the general school population is not really fair. Comparing kids in school with parents that are very involved in their education with homeschoolers would be more relevant. I don’t think that study exists, but I suspect the test results in that case would track pretty close.
Yeah, these kid are being taught bad information. When they get older some of them will figure it out, and some won’t. Surveys seem to indicate that about 1/2 of Americans believe in the whole creation / Noah storyline, yet most of them are functional adults holding down jobs, raising families, etc. So I really believe the outrage over this tiny minority is misplaced. It is somewhat a self correcting problem, and the problem itself is not that big of a deal in the first place.
This story from the Stanford Alumni Magazine about homeschoolers might be of interest.
I may have still held an outdated stereotype about homeschooling, sorry if I offend unnecessarily. Though that article from Stanford does seem to imply that the home-schooling movement (or at least its vocal side) is still predominantly religious, thus it’s easy to see why people could get such a stereotype.
I’m a little distraught by the idea that there’s no national system for monitoring these kids. It seems like it could be a recipe for people falling through the ‘well-rounded education cracks’ so to speak.
My coworker was raised as a Jehova’s Witness (her parents have since left that
branch of Christianity) and most of her friends in the church growing up were home-schooled.
She said that to a person, they are not as well educated as their public school
counterparts, seem unable to make tough decisions (mom and dad “helped” them so much
that they can’t stand on their own two feet as adults), and they have low-paying jobs.
One home-schooled friend didn’t pass the test required to get a high school diploma,
and is now home schooling her OWN kids.
Stupid is as stupids teaches one’s own children.
Kenneth: As far as academics are concerned, I have no doubt that home schooling can be part of a good strategy, as you seem to have used it. One cannot get around the socialization issues (good and bad on both size) and it is hard for me to believe that any one or two adults (the parents) can have the breadth and depth of training and knowledge as, say, the entire staff of a public high school!
Some of the more successful stories with home schooling, as you mention, also use other resources than just home schooling, attesting to this fact, apparently.
COD: Yes, the statistics are hard to get. One of the more commonly cited studies indicates that home schooled kids get around the 80th percentile on standardized tests. The problem with this is that they are also a subset of the population that, when you look at their demographics, should really be getting closer to 90th percentile!
Carlman (and others) This is an important point. There are different things going on here. I would think the non-fundies would do more to get information out about what they are doing and why it might be good.
carlman 23 -
My son was reading when he was 3. Our initial foray into home education was simply a reaction to our concern that he would bored in kindergarten. Of course, we had the same concern in first grade, etc. As we stuck with it, it became less and less about test scores and more about personal freedom, for both us and our kids. The state of VA requires us to submit standardized tests every year. We uses the famous CAT-9 tests that many us probably remember from elementary and junior high school. My kids ace it every year - scoring in the 90th percentile and better. So the state is happy and we are free to spend our time on what really interests us. (The dirty little secret is we spend maybe 2-3 hours a day on the core subjects those tests are testing, with no “homework”). My daughter spends 2-3 hours a day with her horse, which is what really interests her. And through that she picks up a whole bunch of biology and psychology. You’d be surprised how much a horse herd and a junior high lunch room clique have in common. Not to mention the leadership and self confidence that comes from a 80 lb girl commanding a 900 lb horse to do exactly what she wants. My son spends his time reading 800 page history books on military history, because he wants to. If something interesting is happening at a museum, we go . If something interesting is happening out of town, we take a trip. If everybody has the sniffles we blow off day or two. It stopped being an education choice years ago. It’s a lifestyle choice for us. We choose not to stuck in the grind of the school system calendar. Not to be stuck with the textbook committee’s curriculum choices. Not to be stuck spending 6-8 hours a day on stuff that can be easily accomplished in 2-3. And most importantly, not to be stuck vacationing in the summer with everybody else. Beach house rentals drop 50% or more after Labor Day
COD: I like the rental property angle. That is starting to make a lot of sense….
Greg: The term homeschool is misnomer. It’s really nothing like school, and my homeschooled kids don’t spend much time at home. 1 or 2 parents can easily handle all the curriculum needs up to at least junior high. Your right - a lot of parents aren’t going to successfully teach differential equations or high school level chemistry. That said, there are plenty of options. With the strong foundation in reading, writing and the basics of math that many homeschoolers get, a lot of that is much more accessible via self-study that you might think. Many 16 homeschoolers take classes at the local community college, particularly the higher level science and math that is beyond mom and dad. Online education options are also becoming much more popular. It’s true that many homeschoolers do it to protect their kids from the outside world, particularly in the early years. I don’t see anything wrong with that. There is a lot of stuff going on in the typical elementary school that 8 year olds should not have to deal with yet. However, very few homeschoolers are in protection mode when the kids are 14-15 years old. Yes, the fundies are, but I’m talking about more mainstream homeschoolers here. Those kids are in community college, or working with a homeschool co-op taking chemistry class from a homeschooling parent who happens to be a chemist working at DuPont, or they interning at the Smithsonian 4 hours a day. There is a rich world of opportunity to learn out there that most kids never see because they are stuck in school 8-3 and have 3 hours of homework each night.
For my part, my daughter is largely home schooled in certain areas of science, and by extension, she teaches her teachers a lot along the way. I suspect (indeed hope) that as she moves into middle school and on to high school that the reverse flow of information happens!
I have no doubt that many ‘home-schoolers’ are improving the education of their children by allowing them to develop at a more appropriate pace. I’ll be the first to admit that I was quite bored with many aspects of elementary school.
Without proper monitoring though, how can we be sure that the majority of these kids are receiving an appropriate education rather than an indoctrination? I’m glad that many kids are getting the education they should, but I’m looking for data about the phenomenon as a whole.
I’m a bit confused by this statement:
“There is a lot of stuff going on in the typical elementary school that 8 year olds should not have to deal with yet.”
Could you give examples? I’ll admit that I learned many ‘dirty-words’ that I hadn’t learned at home, but I don’t feel that I’m screwed up as a result…
carlman - 98% of kids are in the public schools. Depending on whose statistics you believe, 10-40% of them graduate functionally illiterate and in need of remedial help to move forward in college (in the US). It seems to me if you are really that concerned about the youth, you should focus your concern on the thousands and thousands that come out of the public schools lacking the basic skills to function in the world. Homeschoolers are 1-2% total, and the percentage of that small number that aren’t bothering to provide a decent education to their children is statistically insignificant. We are talking about 15 religious fundamentalists at a mall in MN here. They get way more attention than they deserve.
To answer your other question, just in the last couple of years we’ve had elementary school kids with both drugs and guns at school in my suburban neighborhood. We’ve had attempted rapes too. A police officer told me that a lot of what they get called into schools for goes unreported in the media. To a certain extent, nobody out here in suburbia wants to admit that we have the same problems as the inner city schools. Granted, for all I know those problems were just as unreported when we were in school. However, I think my ability to make early childhood a little more innocent for my kids is a good thing. There is plenty of time to deal with the ugliness of the world when they are cognitively more able to deal with it. Like now for instance, as my son will be a teenager nest week!
Any bunny-related projects there that tested or demonstrated how they “chew the cud” and therefore are unclean? (See Leviticus 11.6)
“She said that to a person, they are not as well educated as their public school
counterparts, seem unable to make tough decisions (mom and dad “helped” them so much
that they can’t stand on their own two feet as adults), and they have low-paying jobs.”
I’m a former evangelical Christian (turned atheist) and know many parents who home-schooled their children for religious reasons.
I haven’t seen any definitive studies, but just from my observations, the above statement is absolutely true.
My experience with Christian home-schoolers:
One family with five or six kids home-schooled them all, the older girls got married right out of high school to boys from church and are now busy starting families in their early 20s. The boys have gone to work at Starbucks and Office Depot.
Another family - same story, no college aspirations, very young marriages to other home-schooled kids, grown kids now working at low-level office jobs.
A third family - the parents were former educators so the kids did get decent educations, though their social skills are terrible and they’ve always had trouble fitting in with peers (they’re much more comfortable with adults). The two kids now attend bible colleges. I don’t think they even applied to “secular” universities.
Fourth family - kids were home-schooled by videotaped lessons that mom purchased online from a religious “educational” company. They were entered into public high schools in 9th grade. They are socially very adept, being outgoing kids and athletic, but have done terribly with academics. (They’re in the public high school my kids go to and the achievement level is extremely high.)
The level of study is way over their heads and although they work hard, there’s no way they can make up for the deficit of learning they face. One of the kids told my son that the Revolutionary War was fought between the U.S. and Russia. I’m serious. That’s how poorly these kids have been educated. I won’t even get into the science “teaching” they’ve received - it’s too depressing.
I briefly flirted with the idea of home-schooling my kids. One issue that troubled me was the bullying,
and the lack of an appropriate response from school authorities. I was also disgusted by the appalling
lack of quality of the education in my local schools. My son attended a school for the gifted, a school
which was the pride and joy of our city, and it was a joke (albeit an unfunny one). His teachers were
downright stupid. One sent me a note home and it was filled with spelling and grammatical errors. The
science fair was pathetic. The library censored, or in some cases, outright banned books. I thought about
home schooling for the opposite reason of many parents–I wanted my kids to have a broad, liberal, and
uncensored education. I didn’t want my kids to be subjected to the type of mind-control that seemed
to be going on in the schools. Many religious people think their kids will pick up “bad” ideas if
they go to a public school. They’re afraid their kids will learn about sex and have free access to
“naughty” books. I found the opposite to be true. My city’s schools seemed to be run by Puritans.
I decided against home schooling for a number of reasons, and one reason was that I believed, liberal
and free-spirited as I am, that giving them an education at home would only serve to limit them in the
very way that I was trying to prevent. They wouldn’t have the social interaction that school provides,
for one thing. They wouldn’t be exposed to a variety of viewpoints and opinions. Reading Mark Twain’s
books, N-word and all, is one thing. But part of a well-rounded education is knowing first-hand that
some people object to those books. Then the kids can think about why some people object. They can
discuss it with those people. They need to know, and experience, what other people in the world
think and believe. That’s truly the only way I can guarantee that my kids will develop their own
opinions. So I capitalized on the limits of the public school system. My children see the limits for
themselves, and because I let them have a pretty much unlimited education after school hours, they
are well aware of what their school doesn’t provide. Not only are they educated in subjects that
many of their peers have no idea even exist, (entangled particles, anyone?), but they can also look
at their school system with a critical eye, which, I think, helps them to see an important part of
human nature, warts and all.
All in all, I’d like to think I’ve given my kids the best of both worlds. They’ve turned out pretty damn
good, and pretty damn smart.
That’s just my little opinion on the matter
COD:
I think it’s safe to say that we all want our children to be safe, and it’s our natural instinct as
parents to protect our children. Violence in schools is an unfortunate reality. I’ve had my kids
in the public school system for many years now, and a good number of those years was not only in an
inner-city school, but a school in one of the most violent and dangerous cities in the nation. Don’t
believe me? Check the crime statistics for Saginaw, Michigan. The world is dangerous. You can’t change
that reality. More people die in their kitchens, I’m sure, than at school. Car accidents and
slippery sidewalks pose more of a danger to your children than the schools. That’s no excuse to let
the schools get away with improper security and supervision. I’m just saying that, by keeping your kids
out of school, you’re only trading one danger for another.
I know of two home-schooling families - sister-in-law with three kids in one, and a friend of 17 years with two kids in the other. Both pulled their children out of schools because of a lack of available slots for the intellectually gifted.
They took full advantage of both the online resources and local home-school communities to give the education that the public system was unable to provide. Now, granted, the online material and local community has a wide streak of Christianity in it, but that’s easy enough to dodge around.
Greg,
While High School normal socialization would have been nice. The bullying and transgender issues that my daughter (who I will now say is my son) suffered were not things that a suburban high school is equipped to handle.
He, in 9th grade was an open member of the school chapter of GLBT club. This caused no end of hassles with several of the school teachers. Some teachers were outright hostile to his orientation others were quietly supportive. When GLBT activities were publicized (and they were of the nature of promoting tolerance and diversity) posters were torn down and/or defaced. The school administration did nothing! Zero! Nada! As much as I would like to believe that public school education professionals should be able to handle this stuff, it is in reality beyond them. Like our society they can hardly handle race and gang issues, let alone those of GLBT. Religion was also probably a piece of it as he while not an avowed atheist, refused to say he is a Christian, or a member of any other religion. Diversity (in sexual orientation) is something that they are not really allowed to be equipped to handle given the puritanical nature of our society. The community college my son attends seems to be beyond that as the focus is prep. for University or Career. With that as a real focus, that is, a focus on academics the other crap can just go away. His closest friends are now other running start (same age) or other close to the same age students. I also (for myself) don’t have to get in the face of some 7th grade chair throwing (yes, that happened) deluded fool that thinks she is a science teacher to tell her that she MUST, by state law follow the school curriculum when it comes to teaching evolution.
I fought a personal Pledge of Allegiance battle when I was in High School during the Vietnam era, and won. I will fight for my son’s rights now!
High School is inimical to his interests, where he is at now has as much less conflict as there is as much more challenge.
And let’s not forget the golden rule in those Christian( and most other) homeschool households: ” Mother knows best..”….can you imagine the unchallenged authority that these mothers wield against the minds of their children?
Actually sqeeky - you have that 100% wrong. In a Christian dominionist family, father knows best. Mom is a subservient help meet who is to keep a proper Christian home, and put out on demand for her Godly husband.
COD: I’d say that’s true maybe 9 times out of 10 for Christian families, but I’ve definitely met more homeschooled kids whose mothers were born-again psycho-Christians with an ax to grind and whose fathers were quiet work-a-holic type dudes who couldn’t be bothered to put up a fight. (This is based on the 3 homeschooled families I knew growing up being this way and nothing more. In fact, in one of those families the father was a research scientist…)
For Greg: Is that little flame-haired boy in the pic the same kid who won the AIG essay contest or whatever? For some reason he looked immediately familiar to me, but maybe it’s because fundie homeschooled kids tend to have the same collared shirt/glasses look going on.
Sorry, I did a simple search and answered my own question, no it isn’t:
http://zenoferox.blogspot.com/.....itics.html
But if you haven’t read Josiah’s award-winning essay I suggest you treat yourself.
That was rich Darrel, thanks. I’ll summarize for those that don’t want to click over. The bible is the inerrant word of God. We know this is true because the bible says so.
Incredible, Greg. I’m sure you had a ball.
I hope this exhibit did not consist of several bunnies that had been subjected to amputations and various creative reattachments that demonstrated other ways in which the parts might have been arranged.
What’re you, some kind of Empedoclean?
“Yeah, darrel, I am with you on this deal for sure….you said “definitely met more homeschooled kids whose mothers were born-again psycho-Christians with an ax to grind and whose fathers were quiet work-a-holic type dudes who couldn’t be bothered to put up a fight”…and wow, I couldn’ta said it better myself.
Right now I am remembering one of several mommas dearest who was a “recovering dancer who used to dance at Disney land,” whose husband was basically there to provide for her and her hellspawn, but the peace in the house of these psycho suzies is really hinging on poppa being the p-wupped wuss that he was homeschooled to be( I have known many of these types of alleged homeschoolers, an dyes, they are grinding more than axes….)
and no offense, COD, i am sure there might well be one or two men out there who run the christodominion household, but really, I have never met one. The word indeed calls for a man to lead the sheepies, but in fact, and practice, they are arely in the home for the larger part of the day, and the role and rule of “mother knows best ” is the most common practice I have observed in these homes–dozens of them.
Have you noticed also how the born agains have so many female ‘pastors’ and preachers as well? WWJS(ay)-v- WWJD? We all know he din’t go there with the wifey….
I don’t have time to read the whole thread so I hope I’m not repeating anything here. I have some agreement with criticism of home-schooling and one big disagreement with the “socialization” criticism.
My kids are/were home-schooled. Yes, there are some real problems with many home-schoolers. Some don’t actually do anything (I know a family with four illiterate kids from 14 to 20 years old). Some teach their kids from an extreme creationist perspective or some other tweaked view. But many do a great job, providing their kids with a well rounded education that provides a solid background for those kids as they go on to higher education. Most are somewhere in between these extremes. I like to think of my kids being on the well rounded end
The oldest, 17, is now attending the community college full time working on her AA and doing very well.
I will agree that home-schooling has some serious problems in regards to what some people teach their children and I think that this should be addressed. The criticism of home-schooling that I strongly disagree with is the really stupid “socialization” argument. Ugh!!!!!! Do people think that home-schooling families relocate to Mars or something?? Very few home-school kids (in my experience) have unusual socialization problems. It’s not like public schoolers are immune to socialization problems are they? I went to public school and I was painfully shy. Public school doesn’t prevent shyness. Most home-schoolers use tutors and clubs a lot. Most have class room experience. I never belonged to any clubs or participated in any school activities, as many public schoolers do not. My kids are active in several clubs. They both speak in public often (we have 4-H demonstrations tomorrow), something I learned to dread in public school. If there is one area where home-schooling generally excels it’s in socialization. These kids don’t have the cliques and bullies (so much) to stomp down their self esteem. They often work with much younger kids and with the elderly and know how to interact with people of different ages with ease. Most of them are “mature” for their age. Even the ones with nutso parents. I find my kids’ public school friends distant with adults. I know that most of them have experience with drugs, sex and violence (as I did as a public schooler at that age) than the home-school kids. I know this because I have a very open relationship with my kids (and a myspace account) and we talk about it a lot. The number one reason I home-schooled my kids is because I like to spend time with them and I’m interested in their education. The second reason is “socialization”. I didn’t want them to be socialized in school.
Yiela: I totally hear where you’re coming from on this. I think it’s a huge disservice to assume that homeschoolers are “less socialized” or have more “socialization problems.” And you’re very right to highlight some of the ways in which homeschooled kids are better socialized in certain categories.
I think the problem, however, is that the socialization that occurs is completely different. The children I grew up with who were homeschooled tended to be VERY bright and VERY outgoing, but on some level their social growth was still affected adversely. I think it has to do with the sheltering aspect of homeschooling. These kids weren’t as open to new ideas as I think they could have been and they all had very prominent superiority complexes. In fact, when they interacted with non-homeschooled kids I’d venture to say that they were often the “bullies” because they were used to always being top of the pile (in their own homes). I can see not wanting your children to recieve a sub-standard education, but trying to protect your children from unknown and unknowable dangers seems vaguely pointless to me, so I’ll never be able to understand homeschooling from that point of view.
(Plus, side note, I personally happen to think it’s a great thing that teenagers mistrust adults and I wouldn’t change it for anything in the world. Adults do not always know what’s best, and yes, sadly, that includes you, their parent. You can establish a report with your children and still allow them to rebel and become their own person. My mother picked her battles with me and we had some rough times when I was a highschooler, but to this day we’re like best friends.)
And by “report” of course I meant “rapport.”
I’ll be the first to acknowledge that my high school education wasn’t the best.
Personally I think I should have been home schooled (although I think I effectively was in many ways. I would read my parent’s college textbooks and then talk to them about it and research it at the library when I was a little older (middle school or so)) for the simple reason that my educational needs were not met by the school system. The year before I was taking (high-school) calculus at my middle school the elementary school had me in remedial math learning fractions. Dad let me blow off the home work because I was learning more on my own and had me in school just to make friends. Which I don’t really think I needed. However I was a very strange child and a *good* school would have functioned even better than home schooling, and did for middle and high, (I should have gone to some math courses at a Community college but the logistics of that were complex).
Re examples of fundy homeschooled kids where the girls get married and the boys work at unskilled service jobs: It seems to me that this would be an equally likely outcome were these same kids educated at group high schools.
Re socialization: I remain unconvinced that throwing children and adolescents into largely unsupervised, age-segregated groups is a good way to turn out productive members of society. So what if the home-schooled children get along better with adults than with kids their own age - getting along with adults is the skill that most of us will need to use for most of our lives.
My own experience with home-schooling: My older son was in traditional group schools from the age of 4, but homeschooled for most of highschool (his choice). Due to some bizarre legal requirements of the local education system, he did not actually get a highschool diploma, however, he has now successfully completed (with very high grades) an electronics technician program at a community college, and is enrolled in a technologist program. My younger son was homeschooled for the last half of his senior year in highschool. He is now in 3rd year university, consistently in the top portion of his class.
Regarding socialization: It cannot be the case that being in a traditional school environment vs. home schooled environment is the only factor. It seems to be that the very decision to home school is often a direct result of how parents perceive of the world around them. Isn’t this correct? A hugely important decision, and clearly one that bucks the trend (that is indisputable) is made by parents based on their perception of the traditional school environment.
I’m hearing fear of danger. I’m hearing fear of lefty politics. I’m hearing fear of righty politics. What I’m hearing mainly is too hot/ too cold; too hard/too soft; too big/too small; never “just right.”
I submit that for the vast majority of home school parents, this is because their own limits are narrower than other people, or that their center (sociopolitically, whatever) is skewed in relation to the average in their community. See what I”m saying? It is not one or the other, it could be either or both.
So far this is no great insight. This is exactly what people on this thread are saying. I’m just summarizing and pointing out the obvious.
But I have a reason for doing this: The “typical” home school parent (adults who choose this path for their children) may not be “typical” or easily categorized in most ways, but are the same in this respect: They are sociologically positioned differently than other parents. That almost certainly indicates a different starting point for the way the child ends up, socially, home schooling or not. People “inherit” their cultures, one way or another (often with modification of course)
The choice to home school is very often an indicator of some kind of discordance or mismatch between the way parents perceive the world their children would enter in regular school and what they think that world should be like. It better be! One does not make such a decision lightly. Of course the children of such parents are going to be “different” even if not home schooled.
What I’m saying here is that you’all need a better null hypothesis!
Yeah, abeja, there does eem to be a focus , primarily maternal in origin, that those kids wil learn bad things about sex, bad books, etc…but I would love to see a link between early pregnancy/parental age and homeschooled kids….these households seem more than anything to be desperate to prove Skinner wrong, that in fact there is a reason we need to emphasize to growing young minds that they are “boys” and “girls” as if separate, but superficially equal.
I couldn’t help but notice that one of the posters here on this thread has a blog wherein we note, empirically, that the he virtually can’t say no to the money and resource consumption of the daughter of that family, who has the expensive habit of horse husbandry,whereas the son is a little groundless, and shifting in his focus a bit….so I would surmise that “behavior is shaped by schedules or contingencies of reward or reinforcement,(i.e.behaviorist theory, Skinner, et al)as much as it is by the metaphors of simple language aquisition, and also that these kids are infused in largesse with a biblical and prohibitive and yes, as Greg noted,”narrow” focus of parents, fear based responses, etc…
and when are we gonna have a homeschooled president, huh, huh?…Or was that Abe Lincoln…or, like Flava Flav?
I’m pretty sure Abe Lincoln went to a one room schoolhouse, constructed entirely from the wood of a large cherry tree…
Darrell-Thanks for your kind comments. But, I think you misunderstood what I meant about the public school kids being “distant”. It’s not that they tend to have a healthy distrust of adults but that they tend to be, well, hiding things. Like that they are drunk. OK, that sounds a little extreme I suppose but it’s often true. I know lots of public school kids and I (amazingly) remember some of my teenage years. When they act like that they are stoned or whatever. I don’t want you to think I’m a total uptight prude. I’m drinking a beer right now and we tend to have a somewhat european attitude about alcohol at my house. I do restrict my kids unsupervised hanging out with several kids (one of them a cousin) because these kids party and could drink me under the table. I do allow and even encourage their friendship though.
For me, I didn’t home-school to “protect against dangers”. It’s not about sheltering from these things. The point is to have the exposure in small doses. I will use the example of my daughter attending 5th grade for several months. There was a bully on the bus that picked on one kid everyday on the way to school. One day my kid stood up to him. What did I do? I went to the principle, he looked at me like I had sprouted a dancing unicorn out of my head. That was her last day of school. Why? Well, there were some other issues going on too but the big thing was that I wanted to allow her to do the right thing (stand up to the bully) but not have to face all the consequences day after day after doing it. She would have become the regular victim (that’s what happened the rest of the trip to school and I don’t think it’s a wild prognostication to assume that this kid would have bullied her after this). We talked about it. She thought about it. Since then (that was six years ago), she has had other situations where she has dealt with bullies on her own and stood up to the consequences on her own. The thing is, because she had a chance to do the right thing and not be totally flattened by the bully she was later able to find it in herself to stand up to the situation knowing what would/could happen. The funny thing is that the next bully totally collapsed under under the confrontation and the whole thing dissolved. One of the worst things I remember in school was watching a bully beat up a kid and doing nothing about it. Other kids where there watching and no one did nothing. Why? I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about that. How could we do nothing? We were all immersed every day in that culture. There was no escape and no help (puleeze don’t suggest we should have “told”. Did you go to school?). Kids get beaten down by being exposed day after day to “peer pressure” or whatever you want to call it.
No, I don’t think the age grouped mostly unsupervised atmosphere of the school is generally better or more natural than the family environment. Sure, there are bad families and many, many families that shouldn’t home-school. My argument is only that we need to allow some flexibility. Nothing is perfect.
OK, I concede that the super geek egomaniac home-schooler is a real and irritating phenomenon. I live in constant fear that my son will become one but so far the tendency has remained restricted to an obsession about WWII aircraft. All I can say is that those kids will grow up and probably get good jobs. They will probably stay irritating but probably won’t do crack.
Greg- I think you your thoughts on home-school parents does describe some but not all. I’m a total lefty and don’t have a lot of “fear” (for example, I’d rather take my chances with terrorists than give up many of my rights). I’m an atheist. Also, I hate to admit this but I did take the decision fairly lightly. Kindergarten sucked. It was boring (for me, I volunteered all the time). I wanted to spend time with my kid. I love teaching. I took a class and figured I couldn’t do any worse than the school and it wouldn’t hurt if I did it for a year or two at the low grade levels. Also, I was a stay at home mom. There are lots of different kinds of home-schoolers out there so don’t make so many assumptions. BTW everybody, you don’t have to know everything to home-school. My kids are musical (not me), they do languages (not me). You back them up, supply resources and pay the bills for things you can’t do yourself (duh).
Technically, George Washington homeschooled himself. Of course, back them pretty much everybody did, if they wanted more than the basics. 12 year olds were expected to be working in the home or on the farm. Extended formal education was a luxury for the rich. Most advancement in education was self-directed by candle light. That said, I don’t subscribe to to the silly homeschooler argument that the founding fathers were all homeschoolers and that somehow proves something about what we are doing today. It’s not the same issue at all.
And really Bubba, if the best you can do in an debate is pick on my pre-teen kids… I will give you credit for at least clicking over though. Most people come up with their wild theories about me without even bothering to review the thousands of pages of background material I provide. You may have failed to comprehend what you read, but at least you tried.
Yiela,
That description in your last paragraph pretty much describes me to a T. Total lefty, atheist, etc.
I also dealt with/still deal with the bullying problem. I’m even more intrigued now about the
question of why some people choose home schooling and some do not. You and I seem to have similar views,
yet you chose to home school, while I did not. Maybe politics, religion, and worldview don’t enter
into the decision as much as I had previously thought–at least in our cases.
I have limited experience in dealing with home schooled children. All the ones I have known were from
fundamentalist Christian families, and because I disagree with their views and style of child-
rearing in general, I’m sure I’d consider those kids deprived and “backward” even if they had attended
regular schools. I do in fact know some fundy kids in the public schools–I have a feeling I’d consider
your kids, if I had met them, to be better educated and more well rounded kids then my own children’s
fundy classmates. So, as with pretty much any subject dealing with humans (esp. kids!), I think there
are myriad factors at play here–well obviously–and whether they are home schooled or not
may not be as big a contributor as I had thought. The family’s views, religion, politics, culture, etc.
probably influence the kids more than whether or not they are home schooled.
Perhaps people on both sides of the issue can learn a lesson here. We “lefty, atheist” types shouldn’t
automatically assume that home-schooling always produces backward, narrow-minded children, and the
righties and the fundies should see that kids in the public school system can indeed thrive, be safe,
and still be greatly influenced by their parents’ values.
I’m still disappointed by the way the home schooled children that I know have turned out. I’m still
appalled by their lack of general knowledge of the world, and their lack of specific knowledge in science,
or anything their parents consider to be against their religion. But those are children of fundy
Christian parents. I think those kids would have turned out pretty disappointing no matter where they
had attended school.
Ahhh, COD: one of the joys of the web is that to a certain degree, everyone is a publisher, and everyone a critic. So on that note, don’t take it personally and especially, don’t hold your kids up as human shields to deflect criticism from yourself. My criticism was directed at YOU the parent, although I understand how hard it is for many in the homeschool community to draw clear, and adult boundaries between themselves, and their children- like saying “no” every once in awhile. Had you read a bit further( or at all) you would have noticed that this said criticism was of YOUR OWN statements ( now that you have outed yourself–I did try to protect a bit of your privacy by commenting on YOUR BEHAVIOR anonymously) and most importantly, YOUR behavior–that behavior of not being able to say no to your daughter, as noted by yourself, on your blog.
So please put those little living shields behind you, and lets just note my observation: genderization/sexualization of these children seems to be a focus of their parents,within the limited scope and experience of those parents,in relation to behavioral “cues” and signals, not the children–your children here– themselves.
So, Ouch, COD…gee whizz, why do you people always point to the kids? Its “for the children, right”? Well, in that you sound typical of many public school parents as well…and in case your own literacy or comprehension of what YOU read( not “your pre-teen kids”) is suffering, note that I carefully, and sentiently pointed to YOU as the source for the Pavlovian training in typical sex based rewards systems for your one child– hardly a blanket statement of your ( or my entire opinion of your) behavior.
Here, my critique was of YOUR BEHAVIOR, as stated in YOUR OWN words on YOUR PUBLIC BLOG, yet YOU point reflexively to your child. Hmmm….I wonder what that tells us of the operant conditioning of one homeschooler….
In the meantime, now that you didn’t ask, it is refreshing to note that you, as a father, are indeed involved on a daily basis in said schooling. However, my query has to do with the ‘genderization of children” , and your comments in your blog ( as noted)are more than interesting, in light of the fact that my working hypotheses is that genderization and sexualization of children in homeschools is a primary goal, rather than a byproduct of or other emphasis point, like emphasis on technical skills, or science or any of a number of other posibilities.Your behavior seems to affirm the existence of” references to “mental” events, as in saying that an organism learns to behave in a certain way because it “finds something pleasant” or because it “expects something to happen.” To the mentalistic psychologist these explanatory events are no more theoretical than synaptic connections to the neurophysiologist, but in a science of behavior they are theories because the methods [p. 194] and terms appropriate to the events to be explained differ from the methods and terms appropriate to the explaining events.”http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Skinner/Theories/
Not that I don’t understand the desire of a father( and don’t take it so personal! gee whizz….I mean, wut, didn’t you learn that in school;-) to spoil his child, especially if that is cross genderized and equal, and beyond the pale of the evolutionary fact that no animal acts altruistically– but that it is case in point of my hypotheses.
The good news is that they are still young enough for you to learn to say no once in awhile, a positive reinforcement of necessary and eventual altruistic adult expected behavior;-)
Now: Greg, was that a log cabin made from Cherry tree? Are you sure? I have ‘evidence’ of the tree of Life being the one we initally cut down….and that one had apples, NOT cherries on it….so my qyestion is: do two apples make an orange?? Or is Cherry coke really NOT made of root beer?
;-(
FAMOUS HOME SCHOOLERS/schooled:
http://www.homeschoolutah.org/pages/pastandpresent.htm
http://www.knowledgehouse.info/azhsfamous.html
And on the other track:
1)DAVID KORESH
2)Randy Weaver and Kin
3)Brigham Young
4)MOHAMEDS MANY WIVES
5)Jonahs many charges( Boat-schooled, which is less popular today)
6)Abraham( not Lincoln)
7)Adam and Eve
8)God
Since I have posted on this topic many times I will just refer you to my latest post http://alasandra2003.blogspot.com/2007/02/here-they-go-again-bashing.html
which will hopefully address some of the misconceptions some of you have about homeschoolers.
Bubba I seriously doubt God was homeschooled, but if he was you would have to admitt that creating the world was an absolutely brilliant thing for a homeschooler to do; let’s see a public school student top that LOL ;>)
On the other hand Christopher Paolini (whose movie just came out) was homeschooled.
You can read about him and the books he wrote here http://www.alagaesia.com/christopherpaolini.htm
In all fairness to Christopher Paolini, he had no input into that dreadful movie.
I haven’t seen the movie yet. Love the books though and am eagerly awaiting the next one in the trilogy.
Alasandra and others: I have written a post sort of responding to the “Here they go again” post:
http://gregladen.com/wordpress/?p=386
George: (see George’s post way above here). Your post did not get put up until just now. The multiple links put it in the moderation cue (and I did not see it there). I appreciate this actual data, this is very useful and interesting!!!
It seems then that roughly a third or a fourth of home schooling is not some sort of christian fundamentalist reaction. Do I have that right?
Aless: of course God was homeschooled–who else could do the job? And just like the many other h-schoolers out there, he too is the ultimate yes and no, the right and the wrong, the authority of all authorities to his little children too–even when he got a few things wrong, lie polygyny, concubinical relations( wow that would piss off alot of homescholled moms: Imagine if little Johnny wanted to experimant with the ideas of concubinage) and not least of which is his tendency to mistate the creation myths of cultures that came before the Israelites( “The original Eve had no spouse except the serpent, a living phallus she created for her own sexual pleasure. Some ancient people regarded the Goddess and her serpent as their first parents. Sacred icons showed the Goddess giving life to a man, while her serpent coiled around the apple tree behind her.”http://www.astradome.com/adam&eve_myth.htm)
put that snake in your teacup and stir it;-)
But those original myths do fit in neatly( slither in?) with one of the above posters who noted that homeschoolers are often mini matriarchies, funded by largely absent male influence…I imagine this female led movement has everything to do with inferiority/socialization/control complexes, not too mention it gives moms and dads a chance to sleep in awhile longer, contemplating the origins of snakes;-)
HSLDA is an evangelical Christian political lobbying org that happens to do some homeschooling stuff too. They have to inflate the influence of the religious right in order to maintain their influence with both that group and the politicians that court those voters. HSLDA has about 80,000 member families, at say 3 kids per family (higher than the national average since Christians tend to have bigger families) that is 240,000 homeschooled kids represented by HSLDA. That is 10-20% of the total depending on which estimates you believe. As a membership dues organization, the only people they speak for are the people shelling out bucks to join. They sure as hell don’t represent my views.
The homeschool environment obviously varies from home to home. My homeschool environment does not include scripture, creationist babble or religion disguised as science. Don’t knock the homeschool community as a whole based on the few skewed views of some Bible banging home educators.
Science is alive and well in many secular homeschool circles.
There were people speaking of “unschooling” on NPR last night. I heard it as I drove home ca 9:30, but did not catch the beginning or end, so I don’t know the context…
Greg: Here is a link for the PDF from NPR, re: unschooling:
http://www.npr.org/about/nextgen/internedition/sum06/docs/transcripts/unschooling.pdf
And here are some NPR recommended Homeschool links–apparently recommended by the family highlighted in that interview:
http://www.npr.org/programs/at.....links.html
Interesting debates you have here on this thread;-)
heheehee David Koresh was a homeschooler? G-d was obvious–I mean who else could tell him anything except’himself’?
abeja
Sorry I have been gone for a bit. I think probably the difference in our choices might only be that I wanted to teach my kids. Before school age we did a lot of schoolish type stuff (french and science mostly) for fun. I enjoyed it. I think the biggest indicator of success is how much the parent wants to do it. Sounds selfish or whatever but it’s the truth.
Also, I hated most of my own school years (loved college) and I hated the school atmosphere. I volunteered in my kids class room and found it boring. By the end of kindergarten my kid that read at a third grade level before starting the year had forgotten the alphabet. She started to get the “I hate it if it’s school stuff” attitude. As for the school after school idea, the kid was too tired and she resisted any extra stuff at home. Besides, a bit part of my personal philosophy is to have a lot of semi-guided creative play (discussion, reading, musical instruments, story telling/writing, drawing, fort building, watching movies in french) and you need a lot of “free” time for that. If a kid didn’t have a creative project going then they were fair game for dishes or stall cleaning. We never spent more than an hour or so a day on “seat work”. We live on a farm and I’ve spent many wonderful hours building animal housing, fencing, nursing sick animals, birthing animals, butchering etc. They know how to work, make and how to figure things out and how not to give up when something is hard or sad or scary.
Homeschooling has been great for us and I wouldn’t trade our experience for anything. I do agree that it does have some serious flaws and there are plenty of examples of bad homeschooling. I’m not sure how to fix the problems.
One kind of funny thing. I was chatting with a friend of mine (a fundy) said she almost didn’t homeschool because she felt it had such a “granola” reputation. Haha. I guess it’s all about where you are an who you know.
Yiela,
Just to clarify: when I mentioned earlier that I let my kids have a pretty-much unlimited education
after school hours, I didn’t mean to imply that I give them a formal education at home, with classes
or anything like that. We don’t do “school after school”. We live our lives pretty much the same as
anyone else does. My husband and I like to discuss intelligent, academic subjects, and we discuss
those subjects around our kids–they learn about constellations because we talk about them. They learn
about quantum physics because we talk about it (well, as much as we can, without any formal education
in the subject). They know world capitals because we know world capitals. And the list goes on. Many
parents, unfortunately, never talk about such things. And not only do they fail to supplement their
children’s formal school education, but they try to limit THAT as well! They get all tied up in knots
when their kids hear about things they deem “inappropriate” for them, which usually means things that
conflict with their religious beliefs. And they carry that censorship, which they call “shielding”, over
into the home as well. So, that’s what I meant when I said that I let them have a pretty much
unlimited education after school, and that they have learned about subjects that many of their peers
don’t even know exist. Pretty much off-topic for this discussion, but I wanted to clarify.
I’ve certainly learned something here. While I always knew that not ALL homeschoolers were right wing
creationist nuts, I had never actually heard a first-person account from someone like you. So it
was good to hear the other side of the story, so to speak.
Abeja, There are a few of us out there. Sounds like your kids are getting a great education. Thanks for the clarification.
LOL…I’m an atheist home educator of two children who can’t help but wonder, “How do these people think humans learned and came as far as we did in science (and other areas of knowledge) BEFORE institutionalized, forced schooling?” Compulsory schooling is still fairly new considering the entire scope of history. Some people that many scientists and non-scientists hold in high-esteem like Thomas Edison, for instance, didn’t even go to school. Why, however did he make all of those inventions without sitting at a little desk everyday without having had someone spoon-feed him all the answers? Could it be that he actually DID experiments and wrote down his observations, hypotheses, tests, etc.?
According to *statistics*, the US is *behind* in science and mathematics but yet during the many years before institutionalized schooling we were right up their with discoveries and invention…HELLO. Probably because many children today have had their love for learning squashed by schooling,which is pretty much how Einstein felt when he wrote the following:
“One had to cram all this stuff into one’s mind, whether one liked it or not. This coercion had such a deterring effect that, after I had passed the final examination, I found the consideration of any scientific problems distasteful to me for an entire year…It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction have not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry; for this delicate little plant, aside from stimulation, stands mainly in need of freedom; without this it goes to wrack and ruin without fail.”
As far as that Christian Science Fair…well, I’d say that you ran into the exception and not the norm. Wrong regarding evolution they are, but I’ve not only seen the science texts (though IMO. I feel it more important to help foster a love of science than it is to force children to memorize a bunch of facts without meaning) that many Christians use but have known their children and in other areas of science they are pretty much learning what public/private schoolers are learning. Also, I live in Pensacola, FL and have been to Dinosaur Adventureland (when it was still open) and must say that the Kent had some great physics presentations and the children loved them.
Many of you are being as fundamentalist as many Christians.
Oops, I used “their” when I should have used “there”.
Thought I’d throw that in before saying the following: It’d be really nice if both schoolers and home schoolers alike would stop making blatant and misguided generalizations, both parties are guilty of doing this all of the time and I frankly am tired of it. Many schooled children are happy and thriving, yet I see many home school articles that make it seem as if schooled children are robots who are incapable of thinking for themselves. Not everyone should home school. On the other hand, as is apparent on this site, many people have the same misconception about home schoolers.
My problem isn’t public schooling but rather *how* the schools are run. The majority of students do not excel in the system, they simply go through the motions five days a week, 185 days a year and if they are lost, too bad. The school system as run today mostly accommodates the top 25% of students who do well at memorizing and learning the way schools teach and that leaves roughly 75% who do not learn via that well, but of course many parents and teachers alike blame the students and not the system. I’d like to use Charles Darwin as an example…
I wonder how many Charles Darwin admirers are aware that he was taught by his teenage sister as a young child, he did not go to school. When he did go to school he loathed it and did not do well at all. He was in fact seen as “a very ordinary boy, rather BELOW the common standard in intellect.” (Source: “Darwin and Evolution for Kids: His Life and ideas with 21 Activities” by Kristan Lawson). Darwin was constantly told that his love for nature was a “waste of time”.
Darwin came to his knowledge of science because he loved it and sought it out on his own…not because it was force fed to him. The book I mentioned is excellent for both adults and children. He hated his entire school years, skipped school, etc. and did not want to take the classes that his father wanted him to take in college. Thank goodness he was persistent in his passion for science!
Now, imagine a student who has a passion for science like Charles, who learns best hands on, going through the same thing today. The MAJOR difference is that rich or not they wouldn’t be able to attend college unless they pass a plethora of standardized tests and made the grade in school. IMO, that is horrible. From what I understand college is awesome and a lot different than school because you choose to learn what you love and are passionate about. Sadly though, even many brilliant college students are forced into learning what their parents want them to know or the parents will pull the plug and that is just the threat that Charles had. Funny that if Charles was alive today that he would’ve been held back in school, labeled stupid and lazy, etc…just like many wonderful and brilliant children in the system are done today.
Love this statement, Sandy: “Many of you are being as fundamentalist as many Christians.”
I can agree with that for sure. I think it is so funny to see the “Public-Schooler” side of the “Homeschool Debate”. I see more fear and intolerance coming from them than most of the homeschoolers I know. I think it is strange that someone can be so heated about making sure all kids go to public schools and yet screams about not having their freedoms taken away by big government because of terrorism fears. The right to HAVE children and RAISE children and TEACH your children is a God-given right and ALL people (no matter how weird, ugly, religious, black, white, or purple…. etc.) should have the RIGHT to it. There are already laws in place in many states that require homeschoolers to test and everywhere they have tested, they have consistently come out higher.
Who cares if they are coming out 80% instead of 90%? That is an average - just like the public schools. The point is that MOST homeschoolers on average are testing ABOVE public schoolers. So why the big debate? Why not let the creepy religious homeschoolers homeschool? What harm could it do to your public school kid? Why not let the perfect public schoolers do public school? What harm can it do to your ultra-freakish creationist homeschool kid? Why can’t we all be OK with the fact that people are different and not everyone fits into the stereotypical molds that others try to squeeze them into?
Up front I will tell you I am a “fundie” homeschooler. My kids take standardized tests and last year my son scored in the 98th percentile. Watching the debate over homeschooling for me is rather comical, however. I see comments from people who are BIG on tolerance and liberalism, and yet arguing whether a person should be allowed basic rights. Seems a bit ironic.
What if the tables were turned? What if the MAJORITY of people believed in Creation and only a handful of “fundie” atheists believed that Darwin was right? Would it be then right for the Christian Majority to overrule the atheist’s right to believe what they believe and teach their children what they want? It seems that the real argument here is rather religion than homeschooling.
Secondly, most homeschooling parents were educated in the PUBLIC schools and SECULAR colleges. So if that is the case, HOW did they become such fundies? Obviously, being a student in a PUBLIC school or SECULAR college doesn’t guarantee that you will grow up being a liberal atheist, does it? So… again, the issue is back to religion.
I think the problem people have with homeschool is that it is a mainly religious group. The fact that most of the critics in this particular comment thread are able and willing to make concessions for the atheist or liberal Homeschool parents who have commented herein makes my point for me.
The fact is that a few RELIGOUS men (who cares if they were deists or bible-thumping fundies) created a safe-guard for our nation to protect our abilities as FREE people to BELIEVE and WORSHIP and LIVE in peace together… and we should all be thankful that we have this right - and not waste time attacking each other.
You can thank the beauty of random evolution for our differences and hope that natural selection will breed the fundies out of existence. I can thank the God who created the universe for our differences and pray that we all make it to heaven.
Either way, a hundred years from now this argument will not matter. We are making mountains out of mole-hills and keeping each other from being able to come together as people and Americans without malice.
Spirittibbee:Do you really feel that people on this blog are arguing to take away fundamental rights? I don’t see that in the evidence. I think too many on the right confuse “free speech and discourse” with a threat to fundie right wing rights–I seldom see the left pushing to have you guys locked up without a lawyer, or tapping your phone to see what you are doing in bed–which of course the religious right DOES advocate–”God is watching you”…..etc.
Strangely, this whole thread seems to do nothing but 1) poke some fun 2) discuss what is and isn’t homeschool protocol 3) discuss what appears to be lunacy in teaching children fundie non-science 4)keep dialogue open!!
Where is the threat to your right/right there? Unless you are talking about federal funding that mandates putting crap religious science into classrooms, at the publics expense.
The “We the People” that has come to define all of our right to discuss, to blog, and to agree or disagree, happened to have overlooked a few hundred thousand voters who happened to be slaves, indentured slaves, and Indigenous Americans–and science can prove that those guys were largely without the slaveholders religion. But same slaveholders made sure to see that those guys and gals were denied the vote, specifically becauese they cowered thinking that a “tyranny of the masses”–i.e. a popular vote that would throw their false god back into hell–was highly likely, and so they did what you seem to propose, or fear that this board will propose, first: take away rights.
I might add that Darwins definition of the ‘fittest’ does a nice job too, because it is not always the ‘fittest’ in a moral sense that survive( see “stolen elections by right wing president, 2001-2008).
In fact, fittest is exactly what the religious right are indeed–they prove evolution–the animal that has evolved into one that will eat, kill, maim, enslave, or maul as many as it has to in order to survive–because survivl is a selfish act–but I can’t prove that merely by science and Darwin alone, because even the right wing G-d says as muich, over and over in that dusty text, which is full of proactiveely defensive offensive wars of conquest.You see, fittest has NOTHING to do with morality, and everything to do with predation, and adaptation, etc….the right certainly has proven itself fit indeed.
“I am aware of the fact that there are a small number of children who are home schooled in a quality setting. But it is very small. Most home schooling is religiously and politically motivated and poorly conducted.”
You’re wrong, at least in part.
http://nces.ed.gov/programs/quarterly/vol_6/6_3/3_2.asp#2
Check it out and you’ll find that only 30 percent of homeschoolers, according to that study, homeschool to ‘provide religious or moral instruction.’
You may have seen studies claiming the number of religiously motivated homeschoolers is much larger but please check the source. The HSLDA and it’s sibling NHERI often publish such studies but peope fail to realize they sample their own membership which is overwhelmingly conservative christian.
As for whether home instruction is often poorly conducted, please provide the data and information that led you to this conclusion. your visit to the creationist science fair is anecdote, nothing more. My housecat drinks from our auarium. I can’t fairly conclude from that that all cats therefore drink from aquariams.
Anyhow, congrats on having the stomach to attend that fair. I couldn’t do it myself. We’re just heading into evolution in our homeschooling (aided by the great site at http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evohome.html for all homeschoolers) and having a great time.
And apologies on my spelling and horrible writing. Can I blame a long night with a sick child?
Dawn, 72 percent of the parents in that survey list religious instruction as a key reason for homeschooling their children. When forced to rank the possible reasons (indicating if a reason is relevant or not, then ranking them) just under 30 percent state “To provide religious or moral instruction” as their number one reason, but 72 percent include it as a key reason.
The report you cite is a secondary source. The original report is here:
http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2006/homeschool/
cmf :
Amazingly hateful! Wow. I’m not sure what someone did to you to make you so incredibly bent out of shape, but I’m sorry for you.
First of all, I have no problem with people on this blog. I didn’t say the people on this blog are trying to take my rights away. I said that denying someone the RIGHT to Homeschool their children and teach them according to their beliefs is taking someone’s rights away.
Never did I discuss having someone locked up without a lawyer, or having their phones tapped to see what they were doing in bed. Not sure where you got that idea, but it is rather overboard for the discussion and your rude comment about how the religious “right” advocates it is merely hate speech. God watches over people in a positive way, not a negative one. Wrath and punishment for sin is not until the end of time – you are quote-mining the Bible.
Psalm 34:15 - The eyes of the LORD are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their cry
Of course, if you do evil in the eyes of the Lord, eventually (after death) you would probably not think of Him watching over you as being positive. To me, it entirely positive and I find great comfort in the many times He has been there to help me in times of trouble.
You are correct about some of the reasons this thread is being brought forth on this blog. I’ll have to give you credit for that. Poking fun at homeschoolers is probably the #1 reason for it (as you stated). I don’t see anywhere that the original intent was to discuss Homeschool protocol (other than a few Homeschool parents defending their choices to Homeschool). I laugh when you say “fundie Science” as there is no such thing. Science is discovering how the world works and making hypothesis based on experiments. Neither macro-evolution nor Creation can be proven through experiment as no one has seen either thing happen. There is no such thing as ‘fundie science’. Just because some kid put a bible scripture on his Science project doesn’t make it ‘fundie science’. It just means that kid is a believer and also interested in Science. The verdict is still out on origins … as no one can ever really know exactly what happened in the beginning of time (especially if you are of the belief that the earth is billions of years old). Finally, if you consider this post’s purpose to “keep dialogue open”, I would hate to meet up with you in real life. This is a one-sided post aimed at ridicule, not friendly discussion.
I never mentioned Federal Funding, either. I advocate putting notes in Science books that state the errors which have been printed. You can do a search for those errors on your own time as I don’t see that you’ll be changing your mind about things any time soon (with hate so deep for “fundies” oozing out of everything you have written, why should I bother?). I think you certainly have the tables turned on the public funding, however. Your flawed Science is what is publicly funded at the public’s expense. It is the religion of evolution that is earning tax dollars, not Creationism. If you think it is such “crap”, then why are you so scared of kids hearing both sides and making their own minds up?
What in the world are you talking about slaves in here for? I don’t believe in slavery. I never have. I am not a bigot or a racist. I do not condone what white people did to Native Americans or to Blacks. Stranger than you bringing slavery up is the fact that you don’t seem to know that slavery was around thousands of years before Christianity and the people who sold the black slaves to the white slave traders were black themselves. Christians of today that are truly living by their Bible believe that all people were created in God’s image (haven’t you heard the Sunday School song, “red and yellow, black and white – they are precious in His sight…Jesus loves the little children of the world?”). There are countries today who still condone slavery and practice it. Do your research. Christianity is not the “Slaveholders Religion”. Yes, a few people claiming to be Christian HAD slaves… but so do many, many other peoples and religions. The fact is – TODAY there are no Christian slaveholders in this country and you are living in the past.
What does stolen elections have to do with fundie homeschoolers? I am not a Democrat or a Republican. I am a conservative and a liberal – depending on the issue. I believe in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and that all men are created equal. You can’t lump all Christians into a tiny little box that fits your own neat little conclusions.
Your fears of the ‘right’ being out to get you are completely unfounded. What in the world did any ‘right-wing’ Christian ever do to you to make you hate them so bad? We should all be trying to get along in this country – despite our differences is my point. We have enough enemies abroad that we shouldn’t be picking each other apart. Forgive and forget is how the Christians would label it. Try and live in peace.
You can believe in God & Evolution they aren’t incompatible.
I did a book review on the Language of God by Francis S. Collins (he worked on the human genome project).
http://alasandra2003.blogspot.com/2007/01/alasandras-book-club-language-of-god-by.html
I am fixing to read Finding Darwin’s God by Kenneth R. Miller. I blogged about a lecture I was able to watch.
http://alasandra2003.blogspot......iller.html
Creationism and ID should be taught as theology.
Evolution should be taught as SCIENCE!
SB: there you righties go again, slinging mud and then standing back and wondering why you are percieved as whackos….exactly what in my post do you interpret as “hate”? Was statement” a popular vote that would throw their false god back into hell?” I was just paraphrasing scripture;-)
But if there is hate, I imagine it is in your response, and the desire to enslave me or imprison me now for awakiening in you a memory, however vague, fuzzy or distorted it may be of the past, that the popular vote was once the most feared thing in the New America, feared by the religious slave holders and the wealthy class who lived in their G-d bubbles and burst into the lives of hundreds of thousands of no-christians with their hate for “heathens, pagans, savages, negroes that are 3/5ths of a man, etc…”…but nothing I said had anything to do with hate. I love you guys and your righty rhetoric–with all of my heart! Without the right who is always right, with the might of the great father (who is white) on their side( the right) their would be nothing right in the world–and then we’d all be left out of great ongoing debates like this one here.Now go get your undies unbundled and re-read your history, and your bible, and find someone else to label( why is it always those who label that are the first to say outright ignorant things? It seems as if your hate is always just below the surface of your religion….as in “I wil pray for you….” which has the subtext of” otherwise I would kill you if I could”) with your HATE for all things scientific…that is youe assignment for today. I expect it will be on the dinner table by tonight…..
Dawn, 72 percent of the parents in that survey list religious instruction as a key reason for homeschooling their children. When forced to rank the possible reasons (indicating if a reason is relevant or not, then ranking them) just under 30 percent state “To provide religious or moral instruction” as their number one reason, but 72 percent include it as a key reason>>>
Damn you.
I looked at the primary reasons and no further. Thanks for the clarification…Even if it means I’ve got a red face at the moment. Apologies.
Though you’re ‘poorly conducted’ assertion is still up in the air.
I’m a christian myself but we’re by no means christian homeschoolers…My husband is agnostic. for all intents and purposes we’re secular homeschoolers. Christianity is approached as a tradition, among many, full of myth and evolution is something we all get exited about.
My primary reason for homeschooling was probably a worry over limiting my daughter’s educational exerience. I wonder if I would have ticked moral instruction myself though? None of the other reasons really apply and certainly I feel moral instruction is a duty I have as a parent. I’m saying that as a christian but it would apply just as well if I were saying it as a secular humanist. I wonder if the results would have been much different if they seperated religion and morals?
Spiritbee;
I have to agree on one thing though. There is no such thing as ‘fundie science.” However, there’s a wealth of pseudo science out there an awful lot of fundamentalist christians buy into it every time they take up the torch of creationism or ID.
SB: Enemies abroad? Who? Where? I don’t see anyone around here professing that we need to go to war from the pulpits of Washington, based on false evidence, fabricated reports to Congress etc…I wish you were there with me marching on those days when I marched against the war, but I am sure you were praying instead, or something else really proactive and well intentioned like that;-)that was a right wing thing…..and by the way, the most recent threat to your freedom was your right wing fundie Vice President coming one step closer to being outed as the only actual threat to freedom, because he is a liar, who used right wing votes to instigate that war–just like so many on the religio-right have done since, oh, since, the beginning of time–some 4500 years ago;-)…..before “science” outed the lies of both slavery and religious lies and superstitions.
Oh…the enemy!! You must mean the g-dless “heathens” who believe in “false gods” and who have “godless lives” who will “take our freedom of religion, speech etc…? ” You mean..ME? Oh NoOOOOO I am going to hell in a damn basket…the final judgement…..yikes….
I see: in laymans terms that means Bush,Cheney, the religious right et al, and all of those lies that they employed in church and society to get us to Iraq, or the Little Bighorn, or Hispaniola….” now I remember you;-): I met you on this blog right/right? You wrote “if you consider this post’s purpose to “keep dialogue open”, I would hate to meet up with you in real lifeThis is a one-sided post aimed at ridicule, not friendly discussion.” .( what would you do slaughter me as an enemy?)
As for friendly discussions, you can watch those on channel 41, Christian programming ….friendly discussions are always on the Andy Griffith show.
As for condoning slavery,etc., it is amazing how you indict yourself over and over….I mean, with folks having “a problem with homeschooling being mainly ….religious…” hmmmm…read the recent debates anywhere here in America about that? Yeah, most of us do have a problem with religion being twisted into science, or anything else that resembles reason…
Oh yeah…and thanks for the corrections…”pseudo science” instead of “fundie science”….I see the clear distinction…..that distinction seems to be something the biosemiologists call “words”…..where’s the distinction? The real fundie-scientists push the idea that G-d was spilling the contents of the earth into a pepsi liter bottle and shaking it up for sediments….but damn that Grand Canyon must have required one huge bottle to swish it all around in >:-) Whereas any good pseudo scientist knows that bottle was made in one of Halliburtons laboratories by the hand of G-d himself?
Wow this is quite the conversaion. As a lefty, liberal, Pagan homeschooling mom who is doing so for moral reasons as well as for acedemic I just wanted to wave my flag in here. You should meet my best friend. She’s the wife of a Baptist minister that homeschools her children. OK, stop. She’s white, lives in a small rural town in the bible belt, homeschools, and is the wife of a minister. What assumptions have you already made? Would it shock you to know that they’re both extreme environmentalists, teach their children evolution, are probably more liberal than me, and actually left the local homeschooling group because it was too Christian. Wow, didn’t see that coming did you? There are all kinds of stereotypes out there, you just have to think critically.
Parden the bad spelling, its pas my bed time.
Actually, I did see it coming, SM, because that is pretty much the message of every home schooling parent who has commented here blog:
“I (a particular home schooling parent) am not a fundamentalist christian who keeps my kids home from school because they might learn science and sex education, or meet someone who wasn’t sufficiently christian, etc. etc.. .. I’m home schooling for different reasons than that, I teach my children evolution, and so on”
And I think it’s great, and I’m very happy to learn that home schoolers are not all yahoos. In fact a good percentage seem to be not-yahoos.
But the evidence contradicting the assumption that a strong majority are is not forthcoming! I don’t expect ANY yahoo fundies to post on this blog. And there is very little in the way of clear data. Many home schoolers appear to be against being counted yet are willing to insist that they can characterize home schooling in general. So it is a little frustrating.
A commitment to non-accountability, when it comes to children kept home and out of the system, concerns me.
So this leaves me with the uncomfortable feeling that there is a movement that should be looked at, not because it is all bad or should be not allowed or anything like that. And I’m not sure what I mean by “looked at.” Open critique and evaluation? But what I see instead is a fair amount of misinformation (intentioanal at some levels) and a strong desire to, as I say somewhat crudely at this point (my thoughts are not fully formed on this) not be counted or evaluated in any way.
What would we say about a public school that announced one day that they would not allow any kind of efforts at accountability? One might counter my concern with: Well, there is taxpayer money going there so the school must be accountable. But if that is the argument, then let’s make sure not a single penny of taxpayer money is going into any home schooling, via vouchers or in any other way. Is that the case?
And I don’t think asking public schools to be accountable is strictly to see if the taxpayers are getting their money’s worth. I want to know that the children are not being abused, quite frankly. There has been a lot of abuse in school settings.
Is everyone willing to say that zero percent of homeschooling is in any way linked to an abusive system? Where’s the data on that? Where is the mechanism for finding the data on that?
This is not an indictment or accusation of all home schoolers. Maybe it’s more of a trust-but-verify situation. After a few weeks of discussion with no solid facts emerging, I’m more concerned than I was before, but at the same time, recognizing that there is more diversity than I had realized.
My daughter, by the way, is in a great public school system, and my wife teaches in a public school that I think tries very hard and does not have the characteristics that would make me not want my daughter to go there (in fact, there was a time when it looked like she would go to that system). So I do not personally share the concerns many people have expressed.
That is not to say that I do not believe that there are schools that students should be kept out of at all costs.
But I do know something about the education system … not just by osmosis from my wife being a teacher, but from my own involvement in teacher training, pedagogy development, volunteer work, etc. And I hear and read people speaking, for instance, of teachers and how awful they are, and I know those people are usually talking out of an orifice other than their mouth. So I have developed a healthy distrust of opinions about the education system.
Above all, I’m glad that people have felt pretty free to comment and respectfully disagree (and sometimes agree!) here in this context.
This discussion brings to mind that old sayings: assume makes an ass out of you and me.
I am a Christian homeschooler who teaches her kids evolution, has a 6th grader working on an algebra course, etc, etc. If I had been asked about my motivation to homeschool I would have mentioned religious/moral education, yet I don’t think I’d fit the assumption being made here of crazy fundie parents who want to protect my children from evil secular liberals and their darwin inspired education system. I would venture to guess that most of the 70% who listed religion/morals as a driver in the descision to homeschool aren’t of that sort either, but you know what they say - there are lies, damn lies and statistics.
Also, all the anecdotes are just that - anecdotes. Not to mention that homeschooling has changed quite rapidly over the last 10-15 years. The homeschooling family of 1985 is likely to be rather different than the homeschooling family of 2007. Personally I can think of at least 60 homeschool families that we know and interact with on a regular basis but I don’t know any whose daughters are likely to marry at age 16 or whose sons seem destined to becaomse weak, lazy gad-abouts. Many of them are creationists or educate their kids in other ways that I personally disagree with. However, I can only think of a handful of kids who I think are headed for trouble and they are the sorts who probably wouldn’t be doing all that hot in school anyways.
I just read an article about homeschoolers at Harvard. One of them even came from the sort of crazy fundie family which so frightens some of the posters here.
I would agree that people who homeschool their kids are probably a bit (or more than a bit) different than most people to begin with. It’s a big investment of time and energy and requires someone who doesn’t mind walking in the opposite direction from everyone else they see. People sometimes ask me who they should contact to communicate with “the homeschool community”. I just laugh and tell them there is no such person - dealing with homeschoolers is like herding cats. The homeschoolers I know tend to be very independant people who think outside the box and can be a bit more argumentative than the average bear. The also tend to be VERY opinionated and, from my experience, have a more integrated philosophy of life which allows/drives them to live out what they believe more than most people. Although I disagree with many of the conclusions other homeschoolers reach about things like science, these are people who “walk the walk and talk the talk”. They know what they think and can tell you why they think it and rarely make descisions without being able to tell you exactly why they did what they did. They are also willing to follow their conclusions through to their logical ends - including pulling their kids out of schools. Perhaps it is this willingness to settle on a philosophy and go with it which differentiates the average homeschooler from others. We do seem to live in a culture which is more comfortable with encouraging exploration and openess to all things and ideas than in taking a stand and living by it.
Just my opinion and thoughts. Now, I must go inculcate my children with their odiously inferior education so I can ensure their future sucess as child brides and 40 year old baristas at Starbucks. I will start with passing my terrible spelling skills on to them! If I can just inhibit their social skills enough to get people to wonder if they have some sort of mental disability, then my dream of having the perfect home educated children will be fulfilled! Bwahahaha!
BTW, the wikipedia entry on homeschooling is reasonably well done and probably accurate. If ya want more info besides your (unfortunate) experiences at the mall or that inbreed family at the end of the road you knew 10 years ago to go by.
And I hear and read people speaking, for instance, of teachers and how awful they are, and I know those people are usually talking out of an orifice other than their mouth. >>>
In homeschooling, I’ve found that those I know who are most supportive, interested and eager to offer help are often teachers or people in the education system. I have one friend who’s a retried teacher and she’s offered to take a look at our curriculum picks and lights up whenever we start talking about anything related to learning. I’ve had to seriously revise my stereotypes and realize that there are a lot of commited and vibrant people out there teaching kids.
I’ll never be a fan of systemized education but my rejection of it has, ironically, brought me a lot closer to the people in the system who love what they do.
rebeccat: Yes, I’ve just looked at it. Too bad Wikipedia is under a cloud just now regarding credibility. But the entry looks reasonable.
According to the article, in the United States, “the typical American homeschooling parents are white, married, home educate their children primarily for religious/moral reasons, and are almost twice as likely to be evangelical than the national norm. They have three or more children, and the mother stays at home.” (citing the usual sources)
And regarding motivation:
“According to the U.S. DOE’s “Homeschooling in the United States: 2003″, 85 percent of homeschooling parents cited “the social environments of other forms of schooling” (including safety, drugs, bullying and negative peer-pressure) as an important reason why they homeschool. 72 percent cited their ” to provide religious or moral instruction” as an important reason, and 68 percent cited “dissatisfaction with academic instruction at other schools.”[25] 7 percent cited “Child has physical or mental health problem”, 7 percent cited “Child has other special needs”, 9 percent cited “Other reasons” (including “child’s choice,” “allows parents more control of learning” and “flexibility”).”
and, this is interesting:
“Homeschooling is sometimes opted for when a child has a significant career hobby (such as acting, circus performance, dancing or violin), or for families who wish to abstain from mandatory immunizations.”
I know a number of public school teachers who homeschool their own kids.
I also know public school teachers who are very supportive of homeschooling. In fact my son’s 5th grade public school teacher was the one who suggested I homeschool, since the school board refused to promote my son, there wasn’t a gifted program at the school and she felt he wasn’t receiving the education he deserved.
The majority of school teachers I know are great, there are some really outstanding teachers (I hope to blog about a few I know personally soon) and there are a few really terrible teachers (who get lots of press).
As far the reasons to homeschool % things that are being bandied about. I have participated in a few of those polls and I have marked religion or moral instruction as one of the reasons or as THE reason is some instances because of the choices that were offered. For instance one of the polls I took offered these choices
wanted to provide moral or religious instruction to my children.
belief in the moral decay of public schools
didn’t want my children learning about evolution
The only one I marked was wanted to provide moral or religious instruction to my children. But that doesn’t mean I homeschool primarily for religious reasons. It means out of the limited choices in the poll that was the reason I homeschool.
The majority of public school teachers I know are great as well, but I have yet to meet one who has positive things to say about home schooling, but I know the opinion probably of only about a third of the teachers I know. It’s come up in class and in social settings, so you get a lot of opinions at once (for any topic like this).
But that is a much less important issue than the overall issue of what is actually happening in the large percentage of homes that are doing home schooling quietly, avoiding oversight or potential intervention, etc.
If an institution acted this way (with children) the place would be surrounded. But if several thousand disparate individuals in different homes do this, it is a non-event. A non-event that could be of great concern, don’t you think?
Greg, the fact of the matter is that as long as there is no abuse going on, what is going on in homes of homeschoolers just isn’t anyone’s business. The bottom line is that as much as some people blanch at the idea of millions of kids being indoctrinated in fundamentalist homes, it’s each family’s right to choose how to function and far, far, far outside the bounds of the responsiblity of government to monitor. Add to that the fact that the studies which have been done on homeschoolers have all found positive results and the idea that homeschoolers need to have government institutions watching over them is ludicrous beyond all reasoning. You can come up with all the “yeah, but we need to make sure *x* is/isn’t happening you want, but until there’s some actual evidence to back up such concerns, wasting government time and money isn’t justified in the least.
BTW I may be comepletely out of line here, but it is my personal opinion that 90% of people who insist that EVERY homeschool family they’ve ever know is nothing but a group of freaks is a liar, plain and simple. I’ve been homeschooling for 5 years now and in that time have come in close contact with well over a hundred families (several hundred kids involved) and while I have certainly found some odd ducks, have never met any that fit the stereotypes that people like to throw around. Not to say there aren’t any out there, but they seem to be uncommon enough for me to feel comfortable saying that most reports of them are probably not true. And what true reports there are probably are people who would be all messed up if they were in the school system any way.
But, the bottom line is that there are always going to be people you think are crazy out there. Grow up, get over it.
I would like to start out by saying that I am the uncle of the little girl who did the science fair project on bunnies. I found the project to be very interesting. Especially considering the little girl is only 5 years old. Her name is Mercy, and I am sure she would be very pleased to know that her project has inspired such heated debate among such learned adults. ☺
I have read in this blog many times from those opposed to this science fair, and it’s focus on creationism, that they take offense to the apparent lack of facts used in the projects. I wonder how Greg gathers his facts in his day-to-day life. He has clearly not done a very good job of fact gathering at the science fair.
Greg, you state that there were only about 15 projects at the fair. I was at the fair. In the section of the “bunny” project alone, there were no less then eight projects. In the entire fair, I would guess that there was upwards of 50 or 60 projects, all laden with facts. Counting is an elusive skill, but I can assure you that the author of the bunny project is able to count well past 15. Perhaps next year you may stop by her booth for a math lesson. ☺ Secondly, Greg states that the scripture verse quoted by Mercy was 1 Corinthians 2:19. No such verse exists. Chapter 2 ends with verse 16. Then I thought that perhaps Greg fell prey to a typo, and that he really meant 1 Corinthians 12:19. That, however, is not the verse that Greg, or the little girl has quoted. Greg, you really mean to quote 1 Corinthians 12:18, which is what the little girl quoted. Greg, 1 Corinthians 12 is really about spiritual gifts given by the Holy Spirit and the body of Christ as a whole. The chapter’s main point is how the gifts given by the Holy Spirit help us to operate in a world that hates and belittles us, and how each member of this body of Christ is equally important. This text is warning Christians that just because our human minds may perceive our spiritual gift to be more valuable then another’s, it is not so. We are all equally important. Although chapter 12 uses metaphors, it is not a parable or story. The body of Christ is a very real entity brought together by the Holy Spirit. I very much wonder if you have ever read the text you are calling “stupid”. Certainly I would get my “facts” straight before I blogged about them on the Internet. Not being accurate about what I am quoting would, to many people, be considered “stupid”.
My soul grieves for the fear that you feel, Greg. I do not wish for you to fear little girls science fair projects on bunnies or the parents of children that teach them. They will not hurt you. Bunnies are usually very nice. ☺ Home schooling parents consist of people who truly love their children and do not wish to allow other people to have the lion share of the responsibility of raising them. I used to send my children to public school but have since started home schooling. I realized that we would drop our kids off at daycare at around 6:30am and pick them up around 6pm. My wife and I saw our children for only about 4 to 6 hours a day. We missed them! We love our children! The sacrifice we made by one of us giving up our jobs was nothing compared to what our children, and us, have gained. Many people have stated statistics in this blog about the woeful condition of our school systems. You could do a much better job of teaching your children then someone who has only known them for 6 months and is applying cookie cutter methods of teaching to your very unique child! Our children are very social, having friends both in and out of church. They have not fallen prey to peer pressure. They do not feel the need to be like everyone else. My daughter has never told me that she needs this certain pair of jeans, or that she feels fat. She has never had anything but positive socialization, which is what we are all striving for in life. Who enjoys negative socialization? As a result of positive socialization, the home schooling children I know would never deface and vandalize someone else CD’s or property because they were fearful of what they were saying. That was very cowardly, Greg. I wonder what you would be teaching any children that saw that ridiculously childish act. You may say that that Christians have done this in the past to other texts. I, however, am talking about you, Greg. Why did you do this brave thing when no one was looking on a Sunday morning so that you could blog about it largely anonymously on the Internet? Why did you not show up on Saturday and confront some of these “fundies” and enlighten them, face to face? On your way home, when you and Amanda mocked God in your vehicle while swerving to miss a bunny, were there children in your car? Were they able to see you laugh and make fun of those that don’t believe as you do, so that you could give them a good lesson in positive socialization and open mindedness?
Lastly, do you, Greg, really think that it is child abuse to home school children and teach them to love the lord Jesus Christ and respect God? Why? Is it because we have not taught them the hard facts of evolution? Let me remind you Greg, evolution is a theory, not a set of undisputed facts. And for your information, we do teach this theory to our children, we just do not tell them it is true. After all, it is theory. We teach them that God is truth because of the end result of the teachings. We can test and approve these teachings of love, truth, and respect. I have not had any luck, and really no one has, testing and approving evolution. What would you have me teach my children? That matter was created from nothing? Should I teach them that after this matter appeared from nothing (this is usually considered magic and not very scientific), that a great accident came about, and this matter happened to have a head on collision in an unimaginably vast void of space, creating other matter. Next, a series of accidents happened over billions of years (that is a big number for those that can’t count to 15 ☺), which eventually led to the accident of you, my beloved child. Of course all of your thoughts are meaningless accidents stemming from an accidental collection of cells. Your morals and feelings are just accidents. Yes, son, I suppose that this makes my love for you an accidental reaction of chemicals in my brain and that these chemicals could stop reacting this way due to another evolutionary accident. My love for you is not eternal, but an accident. Sleep well son. If you ask me, Greg, that is child abuse.
Greg, I will pray for you. I know it is hard to feel like you are an accident of evolution, and that this fear only causes increased irrational thought, which snowballs into attacks against a little girl and her parents because they disagree with you. The reason you feel this way is because the Holy Spirit is convicting you because you know you are wrong in the way you think. The Holy Spirit is a very good friend to have. You can test and approve this, Greg! For instance, if I were to sit around and say that Willy Wonka and his chocolate factory don’t exist, and even if they did exist, why would they care about me, I would never feel guilty about it. Why? Willy and the factory don’t exist, and there is no spirit of Willy convicting me. Even if I were to find a convention of Willy enthusiasts, I would not deface their property, mock them, or show fear for them in a public forum. If God really does not exist, why do you care so much what other people harmlessly think and say at Har Mar? I will pray for you every day until next years science fair. I will be there, and I hope you will be there too. I would love to speak with you over coffee at Barnes and Noble. Perhaps we can brainstorm about ways to convince the public school system to teach creationism in addition to evolution. I know how much you hate sensorship : )
I rest my case.
Bunny man, it looks like you have confused your Gregs.
But he is ahead of the game to note that the fair was “laden with facts”….that irony is not lost on this heathen;-)
p.s.
Christian: I know that with the benefit of the doubt, which us hearty heathens often apply in our searching and testing and re-testing of hypotheses to prove or disprove the theories we and others create (like the G*d hypotheses, which has been debunked endlessly)I presume when you wrote “sensorship” you merely had a typo: otherwise I might presume that you had been reading about the Right wing Christian science that led our current president/police state to wiretap the heathens and non-Christians of the world with special “sensors” designed to help them slaughter more infidels( overseas), and detect heathen conversatiions that keep us all safe from excessive religio-governmental intrusions in our homes).But regarding the covert nature of disseminating scientific fact at the Christian homeschool fair, would it behoove you to acknowledge that the vast majority of the world does not and never did desire to hear the word of your lord? Or that as it stands, the world is covered in the toxic residue of the heinous famines, and religious wars and such that the blinded children of dogma and religion are perpetrating daily? yet we have l;ittle choice, with a church on every corner, and generations of mindless religious zombies being created in every generation, who know nothing of fact or science, and plenty about the word of the ‘lord’
–you wrote “You may say that Christians have done this in the past to other texts…” I would like to point out that the fanatics of the world who kill fight and die for their G-d all do so without the benefit of ever having had a fair chance to view the other ten zillion possibilities that exist for other ways to deal with differences.
Why? Because that same religious text that you uphold, and the people who hold that text, was largely responsible for the greatst mass slaughters of humans , the greatest oppressions of humans, and just about every other near mass extinction event( like Global warming…remember Ronny Reagan, GBush senior and Jr and their denials of the cataclysm we now know as the human contribution to the extinction of species…and all with God on their side, they claim)
One day, then, the whole world may well be covered in something other than oppressive Christian/Judaic/Islamic death and argument–that endless argument for dominion–and subjugation of minds–that your bible requires of you . That thing that will cover the earth? Yet another Christian Nation caused cloud of dust and herat and then: lots of snow, and the next ice age, which will no doubt cause great joy to all of those who believe it was Gods will, an act that kills off more people–and in fact it will be Gods will–the will of the Christian industrial capitalists, and their obstinate denials that they cause death, not God.
I dunno…the only non christian literature that ever seemed to harm the world is the ones that are used by the religious, and the militaristic( read your Bible–they are one and the same) to start book burning bonfires….
Wow cmf. I had not heard the argument where one blames the entire problems of the world on religion before. ; ) How original. You recite the atheist talking points very well.
You also seem very fearful. Be brave cmf. Jesus loves you. He will protect you from the bunnies. You need only ask.
Greg, If you rest your case against homeschooling on Christians post I was taught that in private school.
I agree with rebeccat, parents have the right to instill their values in their children.
Why don’t you concentrate on fixing the public schools before you worry about private schools and homeschoolers?
Alasandra,
I always worry when someone tells me to not worry. To be honest, I worry more now about home schooling than I did before this whole discussion, and this comes after learning, and believing, that there is a lot of good home schooling going on out there.
I started out figuring home schooling was a fairly monolithic thing, a generally bad idea, mainly because of a) poor socialization of the kids and b) the strong link with religious fundamentalism (which is NOT ok … sorry, but parents to not have the right to teach their children to be vampires, handle snakes, etc. etc … calling something “values” does not automatically make it OK. The 18 and 19 year old home schooled evangelicals I get in my college class are damaged goods. Some are virtually unemployable because they have been taught the art of wilful, spiritual, faith based ignorance. No, that is NOT ok, and it is not about values…. but I digress). Now I realize that was an oversimplification.
I now know that many home schoolers are totally against any kind of outside review. That is disturbing.
Imagine a school doing that. You would not get away with it. It would not be OK to but up a wall and say, no, sorry, the health department, the department of education, the local police, etc. cannot go within a certain distance of this school. What do you think the community that school was in would think? What would they need to do?
Ruby Ridge was not an act of violence by the FBI. Ruby ridge was a bunch of nutcases who got a child killed. G. Gordon Liddy is not a valid cultural icon. Timothy McVeigh was a criminal. And home schooling invites suspicion because it consists in large part of a number of people who hold the absurd idea that they know better than the rest of society put together. What a delusion!
I fully acknowledge that there is a lot of great home schooling going on out there and I’ve become a supporter of that idea. Much of my change in mind was learning that home schooling is not really home schooling (some of the time) but involves many outside resources. I was not thinking that at all before this discussion, and I appreciate your efforts to educate me and others in this regard. You have had some success in this. But you and most of the home schoolers will likely ignore this paragraph because you prefer to be the victims of imagined social oppression.
Christian was out of line. I would be within my rights to simply delete his post. He has accused me of abusing my child, and he has accused me of lying. Alasandra … I have witness and photographic evidence. There were between 15 and 20 exhibits at Har mar, not upwards of 50 or 60. That man is insane. It is not clear that he understands that I did not deface or remove any CD’s or DVD’s, but to read his post in isolation it is clear that he is accusing me of it (I might choose to be kind and assume he is simply ingorant or sloppy in his writing) Oh, and he’s partially illiterate. He is an arm waving, partially illiterate insane maniac. He should not be home schooling his children as he claims to be doing. But by your standards, which are “oh, just trust us … all of us” his children have no recourse, no protection.
I will not delete his posts because they need to stand along side the more reasoned arguments you and others have made, to demonstrate that no, just because someone wants to be a home schooling parent that they are automatically qualified.
If I had to come down to taking a stand, I would take a stand against all home schooling until those of you who are doing it right get your acts together and stop acting like you are little independent Randy Weavers and acknowledge that there are potentially wolves in your midst and without protection there are children who are likely suffering because of your misplaced demand for “independence.”
I have been told to grow up. I put my adolescent view of society and politics aside decades ago.
And now you are telling me to stop bothering you and focus my intention of “fixing the public schools.” You have no idea how much energy I spend on working with public education. A considerable amount for someone who is not working in or for that system. And no, I will not drop the home schooling issue!
Cheers,
GTL
Greg, I agree, and because you wrote this clause below, I re-post it for good measure;-)”
I fully acknowledge that there is a lot of great home schooling going on out there and I’ve become a supporter of that idea. Much of my change in mind was learning that home schooling is not really home schooling (some of the time) but involves many outside resources. I was not thinking that at all before this discussion, and I appreciate your efforts to educate me and others in this regard. You have had some success in this. But you and most of the home schoolers will likely ignore this paragraph because you prefer to be the victims of imagined social oppression.”
And heartily agree that the wolves in the midst are often clad in bunny clothes
and Christian: fear not, for your hour is at hand….and please, DON’T pray for me.Is it just me or has anyone else noticed that those who will pray for you are by virtue of intent alone, forcing their view upon you, even if internally? And then, after they pray for the goats and sheepies, and us heathen folk,they split the neck from the shoulder? As for protection from bunnies–dude, anyone can understand your well intentioned desire to creat a safe and warm environment for your 5 year old, but really, you miss the boat by a coastline or so when you teach that lopsided dusty old dogma to an innocent child, and shut her eyes to the othewr ten thousand possibilities in the world other than your ultimate authority, and half informed knowledge base.
“Oh, yeah, Christian: when you ask”Perhaps we can brainstorm about ways to convince the public school system to teach creationism in addition to evolution.’ i WONDER: HAVEN;T YOU BUMPED INTO THE METHODS THAT HAVE BEEN TRIED ALREADY TO INSTILL GOOD cHRISTIAN VALUES IN KIDS? I MEAN, GOOD ALL AMERICAN GOD FEARING METHODS LIKE: SLAVERY, AND THE PROHIBITION AGAINST READING AND WRITING, BUT MANDATORY PLANTATION SERMONS; OR CUTTING OFF HEADS AND HANDS OF NATIVES TO GET THE FEAR OF GOD IN’EM, AND INDIAN SCHOOLS; OR THE THOUSANDS OF YEARS SINCE THE SLAUGHTER OF JEWISH JESUS WHEREIN THE DARK AGES CAME AND WENT, THE INQUISITIONS CAME AND WENT, ETC…AND ALL OF THE SCHOLARS WERE IMPRISONED,MARTYRED,ETC…AND YET YOU ARE STILL TEACHING DARK AGES SUPERSTITIONS TO INNOCENT CHILDREN? YEAH….COFFEE AT HAR MAR…. AND SOME MORE GOOD OL’ FASHIONED PIG HEADED CHRISTIAN ARGUMENT, CUZ LORD KNOWS HOW THEM FOLKS LOVE TO CREATE A GOOD OL’ CIRCULAR CHRISATIAN ARGUMENT( DO YOU BELIEVE? THE EVIDENCE FOR GOD IS BELIEF…SO GOD IS..ETC…) …AS LONG AS IT HAS NOTHIONG TO DO WITH LOGIC,THEORY,OR TESTABLE SCIENTIFIC FACTS…..
It says something about the weakness of the arguments against design
that you resort to belittling a child. And you don’t even answer the
question! Tell me, how could all the intricate structural and
behavioral aspects of a bunny have come about by random variations
and natgural selection. Be complete. Show every step. Do not speak
in generalities and cliches.
Ross S. Olson MD
Ross, great to hear from you! I didn’t know you even knew about this site. I hope you visit often, and please don’t be shy about commenting!!!! Honestly, welcome.
To those who don’t know, Ross Olson is a sort of local (Twin Cities/Minnesota Area) guru on East Asia (especially China), as well as an activist in the Creation/Evolution debate.
Unfortunately, he’s on the wrong side on that one
Ross, you know as well as I do that a bunny is an amazing and wonderful thing, and that it would be easier to explain the existence of a Boeing 747 in the comment area on a web site than it would to explain the evolutionary history of a bunny in this same space. If cmf wants to try, good luck! I’ll just stick to the following phrase: “The preponderance of evidence” and leave it at that!
But since you are here, you can help me out and I’d very much appreciate it. Maybe you can settle a bet for us. I know you were at the Twin Cities science fair. How many exhibits were there? I’ve got a couple of photographs from far enough away to count them on at least one of the two times I was there (Sat and Sun), but that may not be accurate.
Was it more like 15/20, or was it 40-60 plus?
If you know …. Thanks!!!
Note to self, re: Ross>>>CMF: notice how every time an adult(you) adress another adult ( one of them–in theory) those adults instantly, knee jerkingly and reflexively point to the child and say “why are you belittling the child?”
Note to self: Is it just me or are these wonderful Christians reflexively using the children as human shields to hide themselves behind?
Note to self: Once, in a lions den, it might have been necessary for Chrisatans to hide behind children, but today, why do they do it? Is it an evolutionary survival mechanism, or just weak adults with weak arguments using children to hide behind?
Note to self: Is it just me or can these religious people NOT separate themselves from the children?
Note to self: the children are not reading or posting on this board, but the whacky adults still point to the child, and quasi infer that you have adressed the child, not the adult behind the whacko ideology…
Note to self: I didn’t even mention the actual children, I adressed the parents who are raising them, and adressed said parents and others….
Note to self: see “priest child abuse scandals” and the separation of church and child….
Hi Greg!
How are you today! You seem a little angry. : ( Let me explain a few things about my post. Maybe it will cheer you up.
First, you will notice, whenever I use the name Greg, I do not use a last name. The post was to both Greg’s. If the shoe fits, wear it. If you were not the one defacing peoples property, then good for you. Very mature. If you were the vandal Greg, then that section of the post is for you.
Second, I was not accusing you of child abuse. It was you that accused home schoolers of a “particular form of child abuse”. I was simply asking what you would have me teach my children. If you would have me teach my children as I described in my post, then I would certainly consider that just as much child abuse as teaching my children about Christ. The point was, the atheist theory of the way the earth and humans evolved sounds even more incredible then creationism. It sounds just plain magical and silly. If this is what you believe in, then there is hope for you. You must be a man of GREAT faith.
CMF. You need to come up with some new arguments. Your rave about all the injustices in the name of religion is so tired and immature. I know you are much smarter then that. Why is it that you atheists always forget about all the people who have lost their lives in the name of atheism, and even more recently. Does Stalin ring a bell? Could it be that people, religious or not, are sinful by nature and do terrible things? It is time that you put on your critical thinking cap.
CMF. Were you threatening me by saying “Christian: fear not, for your hour is at hand….”? What did you mean by this? Are you wishing me ill will? I do not wish anyone on this list ill will. I can say truly I love you all as humans and wish the best for you. I will continue to pray for you, as I pray for any non-believer. For me not to pray for the lost would be hatred and disobedience on my part. There is nothing I can do to force my beliefs on you by praying for you. You have free will, and seem to excercise it well. If you are so sure you are right, then you should not be afraid of prayer. Afterall, you think it is a bunch of silly nonsense directed at a ficticious being. I don’t understand why it would bother you. You may pray for me to Willy Wonka, I won’t mind. Perhaps your fear stems from the fact that you know prayer is not as powerless as you say.
Greg. I did not accuse you of lying. I accused you of not being able to count and fact gather. I apologize for that. I was trying to be light hearted and humorous. Will you forgive me? To answer another one of your questions, there were exactly 37 projects at the fair. The information is posted at www.tccsa.tc. We were both wrong.
Truly, I am no more insane then you. Just because we disagree does not make one of us crazy. I made some spelling mistakes, as do most of the people on your list. I am well qualfied to teach my 12 year old. It is my sister’s child that is 5. I work directly with and hold the same title as 3 gentlemen with masters degrees. I hold a high school diploma. I taught myself everything I need to know about network technology. I am a Network Engineer for a fourtune 500 company. Would it suprise you to know that all of the engineers I work with that hold masters degrees are atheists? You may say it is because they are smarter then those without, but remember, I hold the same job as all of them and can out perform most of them. in the real work world, fortune 500 companies pay for performance. They look at work ethic and your ability to achieve results. The do not care about the alphabet soup after your name. This is one of the things I hope to teach my children by home schooling that is not taught very often in public schools. You can even learn this by working at Starbucks. It is very arrogant to belittle those that have jobs that don’t pay well. Most of these people try very hard. Many of these people are much smarter than you or I.
I am at a loss for why you would pull my post. It seemed to me that you enjoyed spirited debate, but if it is not so, then I apologize. The tone of your first post was offensive to many home schooling parents, and I thought you could handle a little bit of spunk from a poster. Perhaps I was wrong.
Pride. It is what makes us think we can figure out everything in the world. I have resigned some things to faith, and just believe. You will never figure out the origins of the world through science, God did not design the world that way. God wants you to have faith. It is very arrogant to think that just because you can’t understand and prove something means it doesn’t exist. Little children would never learn anything with this attitude. Pride, unchecked, will send us all to hell. I have never thought I was so clever as to think I could figure it all out. I just have to figure out the important things in life.
If you want to find God, quit trying to use science. Look inside yourself. Your moral code was instilled in you by your maker and will direct you to Him, if you allow it to. You can find God with science, but it is much harder. Most all of the ancient scholars and philosophers believed in a god.
God Bless you all.
P.S.
You may see a post from my daughter or wife. They are using this blog as a home schooling assignment. I would appreciate it if you were civil and did not resort to name calling. Although if you have to, I am sure it would teach them something anyway. Thanks!
Christian,
I wouldn’t let someone with your attitude into my home, but you are more than welcome to my web site! (Telling me how to act on my own blog … the nerve of some people….Ha!)
I could not find any reference to “37″ posters. Actually, the TCCSA site claims that the 2007 fair had 60 posters. Which it did not. Also, do you happen to know what is being referred to here:
http://www.tccsa.tc/fair/2007/
where it says:
2007 Home School Science Fair
February 17 & 18, 2007
Randomly Selected Pictures Have Been Removed Because Some Sick Atheist Used Them To Demean Kids — Even Those Who Disagree With Creation Ought To Be Disgusted With Those Tactics!
I would love to know what that’s about!!!!
Let me know if you know. Thanks.
GTL
Hi Greg
Does this mean you forgive me? Friends again! Feels good. ; )
The number of 37 is on the tccsa website under bulletins. Check the March bulletin. It is a pdf file.
I am not sure about your above question about pulling pictures. My guess is they disapproved of the use of the picture at the top of this blog?
Peace brother!
37 is still an overestimate, and I wonder if this is why the photographs were removed. (Well, the TCCSA lies on their site about the number, where they say 60 … interesting that the bulletin says 37).
I suspect they have been miscounting, exaggerating, telling lies, and don’t want that to be obvious by an inspection of the photos. I don’t know this for sure, I’m just saying. Its just that if that is what TCCSA was doing …. exaggerating, being dishonest, covering their tracks … then they would be acting pretty much in the manner we generally find among self rightous Christians. It is what I would expect from experience.
Hey HOME SCHOOLERS… anybody wanna give it one more try? I think your case is falling apart. I was this close (holding my fingers pretty closely together here as I type this) to thinking some home schooling was OK. Now I am worried that you are ALL lying to me. Is there a single home schooler out there willing to admit that there is a need for oversight?
I don’t think anyone from Sodom and Gomorrah wanted oversight either.
Hi Greg
“The liar’s punishment is not in the least that he is not believed, but that he cannot believe anyone else.”
George Bernard Shaw
Thank God for oversight at Sodom and Gomorrah. They really were child abusers. Look at what they did to Lot’s daughter. Home schoolers are under the same oversight as these two cities. God.
You still have time to leave Sodom. Run Greg. Don’t look back.
Sleep well brother. Tomorrow is a new day. I cherish this time together.
Your friend, Bunny Man.
Bunny Man: I hope you realize that you are going to go to Hell for quoting GBS.
Lot’s daughter? Didn’t Lot offer up his daughter rather than having the men rape the angel? Sounds like Lot had some issues to me. Nice guy.
Isn’t it Satanic to quote a Vegetarian and Socialist?
My son is a home learner. I say that because goes to an online charter school with very rigorous cirriculum/standards. He just happens to learn from his bedroom and I’m his learning coach.
He happens to be a gifted and talented black 13-year old who has said that he will go to MIT ever since he was in kindergarten.
As a science-based kid/family, we were shocked when we got into parts of the cirriculum and it actually stated in parts of the social studies-particularly to do with homo habalus, etc., as well as biology how many of the lessons basically had a disclaimer on them that said if a parent was comfortable with their child learning the material they just didn’t have to.
This is a publicly funded charter school that is run by the charter school division of Sylvan Learning.
Although it is a perfect environment for one of my three children, it does give me great pause to think that our tax dollars are funding a la carte education.
I take this somewhat personally as you hear frequently about the “achievement gap” for kids of color, but rarely about this this huge gap in learning expressed about these kids whose cohart is largely white.
Olson thinks demons are real.
What’s the point of even discussing science with a fruitcake like that.
“…clearly motived by pure creationist philosophy…” (my emphasis)
“Most all of the ancient scholars and philosophers believed in a god.” (my emphasis)
I fear my B.A. is officially useless.
M! That’s very interesting. And thanks for helping to get the conversation back onto the subject of home schooling!
I’m surprised no one has brought up TalkOrigins
and it’s nigh-unending explanation of evolutionary theory vs. creationist dogma.
But, that’s not related to Homeschooling:
As the brother of someone who was homeschooled until 5th grade, I question the ability
of an average American to properly prepare a student for the rigors of advanced education.
Despite Christian’s [true] statement that the alphabet soup after your name does not define
your abilities or worth, it’s also true that the number of people who succeed and advance
in American careers far outstrips the people who succeed without the various pieces of
paper to prove they are good entry-level candidates. There are fields where you are
required to have 4-year degrees in order to be a member. Professional
Engineering is one example in several states. Despite any arguments for or against this”guildification”,
it is a fact. In order to achieve fluency in the topics expected by top flight universities,
you need an instructor who is both familiar with the field and educated in teaching it.
Excepting talented home-based teachers, I’d say that on average that would not be
the case for mom and/or dad.
My other non-homeschooling directed comment relates again to Christian:
“Your moral code was instilled in you by your maker and will direct you to Him,
if you allow it to.” I have never understood this sort of statement. “If you allow it to?”
Does this imply that everyone who commits an action that is morally bad feels some inner
anguish? I know several persons who regularly commit acts that would, under Judeo-Christian morals
be considered heinous, but they are perfectly well-adjusted, happy people. Does everyone
have this moral code instilled, or is it only sons and daughters of Christians, because there’s some
crazy stuff going down around the world today that can’t be considered moral by 90% of the world,
even Christians.
Greg:
Homeschoolers should be subject to the exact same oversight within their home as anybody else. If the neighbors witness abuse, the police should be called. How the parents choose to educate their children is simply not part of the equation. Yes, some homeschoolers will come out the other end not adequately educated. (And some will go to Harvard) Big deal, millions of kids graduate from high school every year with a sub standard education. There is no foolproof system for raising kids. Some fundie Christians grow up to be perfectly responsible and productive members of society and some atheists will be career criminals.
And vice versa, of course.
Well, I was homeschooled 2nd-12th grade, and turned out pretty damn normal, actually.
While some homeschooled kids become sheltered and isolated form others, that was certainly not true in our home.
Here are the benefits of homeschooling from my experience:
We were open enrolled through the school system and required to do the mandatory testing every year and report our grades back to the school. Via this system, there were not only checks and balances, the school also still got their state allotted money for our enrollment.
My mother was able to tailor our textbooks to our needs and was able to find higher quality books when the particular elementary spelling book we were given by the school did not include phonics in any form.
My education was also tailored to my learning style. If I made mistakes in my homework, we corrected them together. I always understood the concepts and not simply how to get the answer right.
We were very involved in our community, so I had no issues with socialization. In fact, even at a young age, I was much more willing to interact with someone of any age group, not just my school peers.
Not all homeschoolers are biased and teaching a religiously interpreted text. Some of them simply want to make a better education available to their children, and some of them simply have a different idea of family life.
Regardless, my early education allowed me to thoroughly succeed in college. I was able to talk to my professors and to evaluate how to use my time, as I had a lot of experience in self motivation.
Homeschooling taught me to value education. It also taught me to value people of all ages and types.
No one guesses that I was homeschooled. We’re not all guilty of faux science and being sheltered from the world.
Amanda Kudalis (class of ‘95)
Amanda:
I’ve heard of a lot of people doing the standardized testing. How did you do this logistically? Do you happen to remember what tests you’all took?
Well, my mother had a degree in elementary education and was able to administer the tests herself, which we did by the letter. Then we would submit my official fill in the blank sheet to the school who would send us the results.
I can’t remember the actual name of the standardized test as it’s been a while and I was young, but I believe it was the basic skills test that was created in Iowa that’s pretty standard here in the midwest.
Steve_C
I know a learned man such as yourself must have studied Jewish customs about how they treat guests in their homes. This is why Lot did what he did, right or wrong in your eyes.
B.Ruhsam
Everyone has the moral code instilled in them, not just Christians. You admit it yourself when you say ” . . . because there’s some crazy stuff going down around the world today that can’t be considered moral by 90% of the world,even Christians.” Just because someone can do wrong and feel happy doesn’t mean that person thinks they have done right. They still know they are wrong. It just doesnt bother them, or so they say. You and I can never know what that person really feels about their wrong actions. That is between them and God. Just because someone says they are happy does not make it so. The fact that they are “well adjusted” just says that they are able to fit into a world full of sin. That is no accomplishment. This is why I said to look for God within yourself, because the world is full of wrong. You won’t find him easily out in the big bad world. You know He is still inside you, though, otherwise, how would 90% of the world know that the world is wrong? If society dictated our moral code, wouldn’t 90% of the world think everything is OK?
Hey Greg
It seems you are reaping the benefits of my posts by looking at your trackback and pingback links. You and your clever atheists like to poke fun at Christian’s a lot. You could come to church on Sunday if it amuses you that much! : ) It seems your friends, and even yourself, did not find this blog interesting until the bunny man. Glad I could be of service! You may have to be on you own for now though. I need to obey the word of God in Matthew 7:6. I will still pray for you though.
Hey Bunny, thanks for stopping buy again. I take it from your message that you must have read this:
False Pearls
I’ve spent more than enough time in church, thank you. My most recent time in church was for a wedding. I found it interesting that as part of the ceremony the bride and groom had to make a promise that they would raise their children in the church.
I spent some time reading the bible while people were filing in. You have judged me as a person who knows nothing of the bible, but I’m actually schooled in it. Anyway, the passage I came across at that time inspired me to move forward on a writing project I’ve had on the back burner for some time now, and in a few weeks (or less) I’ll be posting on it. This particular tidbit, word of God as you would say, provides instructions for a priest to determine if a woman is carrying a child by a man other than her husband (the husband, in that case, being a cuckold). In the event that the test is positive (well, negative from the husband’s point of view, I suppose) the Word of God gives further instructions for performing an abortion.
Oh and yes, you are good for business. Please come back often! But next time you call me a dog or a pig, do make sure you are an anonymous person on the Internet. Otherwise, it’s 2 Kings 2:23-24 for you!
Oh, and for the record, part of the reason my mom pulled me out of school was based on her faith and part of it was because of the drastic change she saw in my behavior. I had a very difficult time sitting all day long and was particularly hyper active during the school year, then would mellow out over the summer.
We moved when I was thirteen to a very poor school district in northern Minnesota. I have always been grateful I was homeschooled. I know I had access to a better education than my friends. I could tell simply by the notes passed to me in church “witch one?”, etc etc. I also had more determination over my own time. If I worked my ass off, I could have the afternoon to play. If I stalled, I might still be doing my homework that evening.
I participated in choir and orchestra off and on, because of the fact that we were open enrolled. I also spent a lot of time in community theatre.
Because my mom taught me to value the truth, I am not as conservative as she is. I was taught to look at things, think about them, and make choices based on the information. While I might not be the christian my mother hoped me to be, I definitely learned how to think and how to be confident in the world around me.
I am grateful that my mother was willing to put the time and energy into teaching me. I am grateful for the quality and freedom of my education.
Some Christians respect the truth. Some of them are educated and believe that god can be a part of the world regardless of how it came to be. We are all ashamed of the people who represent us poorly.
Christian: You’re making entirely specious arguments that don’t support your case.
“Just because someone can do wrong and feel happy doesn’t mean that person thinks they have done right. They still know they are wrong. It just doesnt bother them, or so they say. You and I can never know what that person really feels about their wrong actions.”
Well, if you or I can never know, then why are we talking about it? You can’t know that ‘They still know they are wrong.’ They may really really really enjoy sodomizing rabid nail clippers in their spare time with no qualms while having a deeply inset hatred of cute bunny rabbits.
“That is between them and God. Just because someone says they are happy does not make it so.”
This goes back to my argument that several people I know are happily and well-adjustedly performing “amoral” acts. I am not saying this through some vacuous opinion; these are people I know almost as well as anyone else in the whole world. I detect no lingering “god hates you, and you know it” haze around them.
Your God must be working overtime making everyone feel bad, all the time. I’m off to go cast some pearls before my dog.
Christian(soldier): In reply to your question–”CMF. Were you threatening me by saying “Christian: fear not, for your hour is at hand….”? What did you mean by this? Are you wishing me ill will? I do not wish anyone on this list ill will. I can say truly I love you all as humans and wish the best for you. I will continue to pray for you…”
I too rest my case…in case you forgot to read your Bible….those are the words of your Lord and Savior after he evolved back into life….why do you guys always react to your Bible is threatening? You see? In your mind, you have proactively sensed a ‘threat’ though none is evident; you have reracted to a fear in yourself, which is evident; and, then, you imagine that you must somehow then defend against what you fear? Sorry pal, I have no Baghdad airport for you to land in as you bomb my mothers and children, but I do have a piece of advice:”fear not”;-)
Have you not heard the word of your lord? And if so, why do you folks interpret your saviors words as a “threat”? Hmmm…..so I wonder how all of those kids and heathens feel about that dogma that you teach them, if you, an adult, feel threatened by your lords words…Particularly here at the end times
Amazing case study indeed….
As for Atheists doing the killing in Russia? Hmmm…the jury is still out on that one, cuz after all, we don’t officially talk about that genocide here in America, because our eyes are still ‘blighted’ with the imagery of European jews as apparently the only holocaust that ever happened,never mind the twenty or so million that died in Russia…and it is still verboten to discuss the other millions and millions of war dead, or those being slaughtered in Sudan today by Moslems
–now Mao and Pol Pot were Communists, and strangely, all of these ill thought out human events were precipitated by the incursion of the west( and its religion[s]) into the east ….seems to me that most of those in leadership under Stalin were reform Jews/conveniently red, or former orthodox Christians, a few ex-catholics and such; Pol Pot was a reaction to seventy or so years of good christian invasions in his country; Mao reacted to over 100 years of good Christian embargoes, opium grabs, Shinto incursions,and conquests on his native soil….not that there weren’t a few bonafide atheists in the crowd, but really….after all, religion has proven itself quite flexible and transient indeed when it comes to shifting blame for its falseness.
p.s.
Note to self: remember to ask Christian,and all of them, AGAIN,to NOT pray for me…
Note to self: oh, yeah, you tried that already….he couldn’t help himself; none of them can…it is their will to usurp your own will in the name of what they percieve as good will…now they will invade…Oh those silly passive agressives…I bet they would kill me if they could get away with it…
CMF: You should always accept offers of prayer. As well, you should always accept offers of free literature. Make sense?
p.s.
Note to self: isn’t it amazing how these people hide behind children, and then project the idea that someone else is a threat? Sounds like mixing apples and oranges…oh, yeah, and then god created the pomegranate…
Note to self: see PZ Meyers blog, for great quotes about this topic,like this one:
“You know, there is a bit of scripture that seems to be conveniently missing from that rabbit exhibit:
Leviticus 11:6
And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
Posted by: Marty | March 13, 2007 03:46 PM
But I must admit, little Mercy is a wonderful artist, and has made the cutest bunny
>;-)….I just hope that by the time she is in art school, they have a law to put draperies on the nude maodels, ala Ashcroft….those naked pagans make me sick!! Naked bunnies…well, they make me hungry….
Too bad she is surrounded by people who can’t separate their ideology from the childs needs in science, or life in general
“Please note that the car, including its brakes, has been designed.
What does that say about the probable origin of the rabbit?”
–Carsten
It was made by GM?
——————
More likely VW.
Higginbotham: If it wasn’t bed time for me, I think there would be a lot of places to take this one….. Maybe someone on the West Coast or South Africa can take this up…. (… ford pintos … pocket watches … Rolex … whatever…. drifting off now…)
This doubtless will be only additive, but . . . I know a home-schooling family through a volunteer activity of mine. The parents are right-wing religious fundamentalists. The kids are “schooled” by working on a programmed curriculum sanitized from evolution and other ungodly topics. So they sit in front of a screen and do whatever exercises the program gives them. The oldest boy joined his father after “graduation” loading and unloading baggage from airplanes at the international airport here. There was not a spark of interest in higher education for the three kids. The youngest child, then about nine or ten, asked me where I thought I would go when I die. To be polite I said I did not know. He asserted he was going to heaven. I was known to have been an undergraduate geology major with a life-long interest in paleontology by then. Obviously I had been held up as a bad example by the parents. Such dumbness, awakened to life by Ronald Reagan et al.
Hey guys! I didn’t take the time to read all the replies (I skipped/skimmed the middle third or so), but I thought I’d give you my impression of home-schooling, as I was home-schooled from birth to high-school graduation.
My parents were and are fundie Christians, so my science education was pretty pitiful. However, the overall education provided by home-schooling is usually higher than that provided by any public school I’ve seen. This is corraborated by a number of statistics and studies at the local level, though I don’t have access to them anymore.
Even with a fairly large home-school group, social life was limited, so my sister ended up taking her last two years of high school at a public school. For me, home-schooling was perfect because I didn’t care about having more friends than the few I had.
I think home-schooling is a great thing for parents who are up to the challenge, but I agree that it needs to be regulated better. My friends and I turned out OK, but not everyone has as good of an academic background as our collective parents. And there are obviously major issues in subjects like science that need to be addressed.
The biggest reasons I like home-schooling are schedule flexibility and free time. Because home-schoolers are only scheduling for a dozen people at most, we can easily take a Wednesday off and make up for it on Saturday, or work through the summer and take days off that most people are going to school, eliminating the huge throngs of people at theme parks and campgrounds. Also, home-schooling can eliminate a bunch of the un-needed time spent teaching, since you go at each individual’s pace. A public school teacher has to teach lessons in a manner that covers all parts of the lesson in a manner that everyone can understand, while a home-school teacher can skim or skip portions that the student already knows or easily grasps. 99% of my days took 2-6 hours for all of my school work, with no need to spend hours each day going to or from school, waiting on a bus, etc.
The biggest problems I see with home-schooling are social inexperience and lack of guaranteed subject matter. Social experiences are different for different people, but even a large home-school group won’t have the social diversity and opportunity that a typical public school has. To the more right-wing groups this is a good thing, but I see it as a potential disaster. For instance, a child will be less likely to accept his parent’s racist beliefs if he is exposed to other children who aren’t bothered by such trivial differences. Likewise, the more radical groups tend to teach concepts, ideas, and “facts” that are very wrong, but fit in with their political or religious beliefs.
By far, the majority of home-schoolers I know are trying to get college degrees and nice jobs. Not everyone can, obviously, but that holds equally true for public-schoolers.
Does anyone else think that some of the things poster “Christian” has said are a little creepy? Consider these:
“Hi Greg. Does this mean you forgive me? Friends again! Feels good. ; )”
“Sleep well brother. Tomorrow is a new day. I cherish this time together. Your friend, Bunny Man.”
Forgive the ad hominem, but… ick.
Hi Greg,
I tried to leave a response yesterday but must have pushed the
wrong key because I don’t see it. I am not a China guru although
I lived with my family in Hong Kong from 1972 to 1980 and speak
(rusty) Cantonese. We do also have two adopted Chinese children
from Hong Kong who came to us at age 8 and 5. We will soon go
to China to help pick up our new Chinese granddaughter. Certainty
in pronouncements about China is inversely proportional to the
amount of time spent there.
I don’t frequent blogs because of the time commitment to read all
the entries which vary widely in quality, as you well know.
Someone asked about the reason for pulling the pictures so I came
and found your questions. There were in the mid 30s number of
exhibiters this year. Last year it was in the high 50s or low 60s
as I recall.
Last year, P. Z. Myers featured the fair and there were a group of
young adults, whether or not inspired by him I do not know, who
tried to steal one of the posters. They ran, were pursued and
finally cornered in a book store by mall security and gave the
poster back. Our person then left and I do not know what security
said or did to them.
You imply that given enough space, you can explain the evolution of
all the structures and behaviors of the bunny. Please go ahead,
take your time. We will post it on tccsa.tc.
By the way, there were two “mutations” in my first post. Did you
find them. Does this mean that I am on the way to the great
American novel or a prize winning technical manual?
Ross Olson
Ross: Are you, and your responses to discussion, always tinged with slight (undiagnosed?)paranoia? Also, I am still wondering: how is it that when adults( us) adress adults( you) you knee jerkingly and reflexively point to the children, and infer that we were talking TO or ABOUT them, not you, as evidenced by that ridiculous and accusatory webpage that replaces your science fair pictures? I mean, is it Christian practice to hold children up as human shields to deflect criticism form yourself–and infer that any person here has ill intent toward children? And do you have any thoughts on the theory of ” he who smelt it dealt it?” Wow.
Greg,
Child abuse laws apply to everyone, so you have no need to worry about homeschoolers. If they are doing something legally wrong they will be caught under child abuse laws.
I wish I could make all Creationist read Francis S. Collins book “The Language of God”, especially where he says that Creationist do more damage to Christianity then they do to Science as their refusal to “accept” the truth makes Christians look STUPID!
I hope I am misunderstanding what you are saying but it seems to me that you think “the government” should be able to tell it’s citizens what to THINK (as long as the government agrees with your beliefs of course), and that we should all send our children to government schools so they can be indoctrinated with the “correct beliefs”. It all sounds very 1984.
Personally I think people need to learn to think for themselves.
Greg: I will pray for you…..and by the way: “Do you have a square to spare? If you don’t neither do I…;-) Oh, here is some Christian literature….Thank G-d they leave that stuff everywhere…..F*l*u*s*h******
Alasandra: when you say, re: child abuse in these environments “they will be caught under child abuse laws.” I might point out that this is definitely not as likely in the Homeschool environments as it would be in public schools, because teachers in schools are required by laws to report it–whereas the close knit, often related, groups of homeschoolers are by the nature of shared experience and ‘belief’ more likely to not report it–there is no rule of law in environments where people share a belief to skirt the law, avoid the law, and interpret or create their own concepts of law, as relates to children.
My ultra-conservative, ultra-Christian relatives in Eastern Washington hold to a generally negative view of
homeschooling, including believing that some parents are using it as an excuse to keep the kid home to work on the ranch, thereby ruining said youngsters future life prospects for lack of any education. One of my aunts is a textbook example of the psycho-Christian control-freak mom (I remember when she used to tear the articles on dinosaurs out of their National Geographics so my cousins wouldnt be influenced by evolutionary theory) yet my cousins went to public school, where they were top students all the way through, they did just as well in college, and now have careers with six-figure salaries (and they’re perfectly happy with their lives too as far as I can tell). I have no doubt that my aunts hyper-controlling discipline certainly gave them a step up, at least in getting them to sit down and study, study, study and work, work, work because her kids were going to be the best, God Bless it. (Okay I’m sure my cousins were pretty smart to begin with).
Just contributing my little bit of texture to the discussion.
xiaan
Alessandra: My wife was was home schooled (and enrolled in a private religious school for a couple of years) and she was abused by her parents and even though she called the state to report abuse on one occasion her parents were never prosecuted for child abuse. And she was physically and mentally abused on a daily basis in ways that make me sick. She is 22 and still can’t talk about the worst things that happened to her at the hands of her parents. I personally think that if she had attended public schools a teacher would have had to take notice. One time her dad asked her to get him a cup of coffee she said no and he broke the coffee mug on her head. How could a teacher not notice injuries of that nature?
And I must also say that while some home schoolers are undoubtedly ahead of the curve she received almost no educational instruction from her parents and only had access to a bible, one history book, and one math book through several years of her education. I met her when she was 19 and she didn’t know how to write a check. Now she reads very slowly but is taking adult literacy classes.
Her parents of course fit into the religious stereotyping of home school parents. They are devout baptists who think they live in accordance with the bible.
Right now in Utah the state legislator passed a private school voucher program that will give money to religious private schools. The pro voucher camp receives millions from many out of state far right organizations and individuals. Whilst the organization Utahns for public schools receives ALOT less and is the only organization with a chance of preventing thousands of Utah kids from being subject to a childhood of abuse and ignorance.
Please learn more and possibly help Utah kids at www.utahnsforpublicschools.org
Hippylove: Wow. Thanks for sharing. I would love it if you weighed in on some of these other homeschool posts Greg has here, as the common thread is that abuse doesn’t happen in the homeschools. Keep up the posting.
Hip:
That’s an amazing story, thanks for sharing it.
Great post! Not sure why I missed it. Perhaps because I was busy teaching.
Don: Thanks. It’s why I am so loved by both the creationist and the homeschooling communities, but especially the homeschooling creationist community.
And don’t forget to look at this:
http://gregladen.com/wordpress/?p=488
Thanks for keeping this post alive. Did you see that JJ Ross over at Cocks in the Snook is not only claiming that I am Hippylove, and also apparentlty SanFran Witch, but using it as a ploy to further deviate from the main theme of homeschoolers who abuse kids?
I left her some flames to fan, because she apparently has nothing better to do than to obfuscate, and deny that homeschooles abuse kids. Oh, that and preteen fertility worship ceremonies and training from a “Diannic” perspective….
That’s funny. I know hippylove, and you are not hippylove.
I was looking for an organization that hosts Science Fairs for homeschoolers (for my
homeschooled kids) and came upon this website. WOW, there are a lot people
making blanket statements (many of them without facts) about homeschoolers.
Although I am a conservative evangelical Christian, I took my kids OUT of private Christian
school to homeschool them. WHY? Because I wanted them to have a better education! I’m
teaching them computers, excellent literature (not all Bible-based), creative writing,
Spanish, and of course the main subjects (Math, Language, History, Science). I’m teaching
them to think, process, reason, and ask questions. I keep them involved in our town sports
teams, a homeschooled art class (yes, there are so many homeschoolers that 3 classes are
offered during the day for homeschooled kids!), and other various community related activities.
This is more than I can say for some public schools in our area who are cutting the art and
P.E. budgets. Many don’t have this opportunity to school their kids, and I feel very lucky, and
blessed to do this.
It’s a fact that colleges are now looking specifically for homeschooled kids. Apparently,
these kids are smarter and more prepared for college. I know many families who homeschool, and
none of them are sheltered, shallow, or abusive, as many comments on this blog have suggested.
It’s really too bad that people can’t be more “open-minded” when it comes to evolution and creation.
I came from monkeys? I refuse to let my kids believe that, and when you think about it,
HOW INSULTING! Be more open-minded….believe we might just come from dirt and ribs (Genesis,
chapter 1). Would you rather teach your kids their ancestors were created by an
all-powerful God, created in his image (wow), or that we changed from tadpoles, and eventually
into monkeys and finally humans (animals?). There’s got to be more to us than that.
hi what is up i learned that horses in 4-h are really good a doing barrels
Interresting story. Thanks for posting this topic!
I am a Christian Homeschooler who is now attending a Charter School for my Junior & Senior year. I’ll be graduating this spring I have to say homeschooling was better academically then the school I go to now! I’m sorry that most of you seem to have had bad experiences with homeschoolers and Christians. It really is sad… but don’t judge the majority by the few. Homeschoolers actually have a very good reputation. They are known for being (typically) harder workers and better academically then public schoolers. As far as Christianity is concerned, it is often said that we are judgemental and closed minded. Think about many of the comments that have been posted… it sounds like the majoirity of you are just as judgemental and closed minded as we (supposedly) are. Personally I don’t see how it is even logical that nothing and nothing made something… the bottom line of either belief (Creationist or Evolutionist) is Faith. It take Faith to believe in either one, but honestly it take more faith to believe in evolution than to believe in Creation. Even if you don’t believe in God, deep down we know it just makes sense that there is a creator. Instead of using and wasting energy bashing Christian and Homeschoolers why not use that energy to investigate what the real beliefs are and look up the “real science” (that in theory doesn’t exist) to see what you believe instead of blindly following each other. None of this is said in anger, but concern for those who have never met a “true” Christian.