So, what can we do to make Greece Nazi free?

Greece apparently allows Nazis to run around loose, and even elects them to office. In elections just finishing up now, it would appear that about 25 members of the 300 member Parliament will be Nazis. The Nazi Party in Greece is growing.

Tell me in the comments whether or not Nazi’s rising in Greece is of concern for you, and what should be done about it.

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128 Responses to So, what can we do to make Greece Nazi free?

  1. I disagree with boycotting Greece. Their once prosperous country has been throw in economic chaos. People are hurting greatly. The level of poverty, homelessness, violent crime, suicides hasn’t been seen in living memory there. The EU needs to solve the economic crisis and the fascists will have no longer have any power.

    My husband’s once upper middle class family has lost their family business, are jobless and living in a home they can’t afford to pay the mortgage. We are trying to get them to the U.S. as soon as possible.

  2. Greg Laden says:

    Melody, I totally agree in principle with what you are saying. But at the moment nearly one in ten members of Greece’s Parliament will be Nazis. The movement there is growing. If there are double-digit numbers for the Nazi party in the next year or two, that could make a real difference in a coalitional system.

    Until something specific is applied that has an excellent chance of making a difference, I’m for any and all political action.

    There is no reason that economic aid of the type that can actually work as opposed to what has been done, can’t be applied at the same time that those countries that fought against the Nazi’s make strident symbolic efforts.

    There are no excuses for allowing a Nazi party to grow in any government. I’ll be very happy to end my personal boycott after I’ve seen real action taking place.

    Of course, my personal boycott is meaningless. I can’t think of the last greek made product I’ve purchased in the US. (I used to get a lot of stuff in Zaire.)

    Nazis are very very serious business.

  3. Bob Allen says:

    What you are complaining about – is NOTHING in comparison to the Truman Doctrine – that involved $400 MILLION dollars in economic and military aid – from the US Government (tax dollars !!!!) in 1947 to Greece and Turkey – which is ALSO the Kick-off to America’s Architecture of the Cold War !!!!!!!!

    I’m currently writing a book that includes this little tid-bit – the Truman Doctrine – as a kick-off to America’s Architecture for Starting and Maintaining the Cold War. ALL done – at the expense of American Tax payers – the loss of over 50,000 American lifes – and the loss of MILLIONS of non-American lives – from 1947 – through 1992 !!!!!!!

    Your complaint – small potatoes – compaired to the BIG Picture of America’s Architecture of the Cold War !!!!!!

  4. Cafeeine says:

    As a Greek expatriate, I find this post extremely naive, knee-jerk and destructive.
    Anyone that has been following the situation in Greece for the past two years has seen that the austerity measures undertaken through the IMF and the various cost-cutting measures have decimated the greek family income and have sent unemployment skyrocketing. It is under this environment, and a growing anti-Europe sentiment in Greece that the Nazis have thrived, finding the large numbers of illegal immigrants a . Proposing to exacerbate the situation through sanctions and removal from the EU thinking that that will reduce their numbers shows a complete lack of awareness of the Greek situation right now. This is extremely short-sighted.

  5. Greg Laden says:

    Cafeeine: Thanks for the politics 101 lesson, I’m sure no one here understood any of that.

    Unfortunately you’ve got it entirely backwards. The realities of European economics and economies is the precise reason for not allowing a Nazi party. This is not about poverty, disaffection, lost wealth, or anything. It is whether or not a modern nation can allow a Nazi party to emerge under these circumstances.

    Not stopping the rise of a Nazi controlled government would be short sighted.

  6. Cafeeine says:

    What is short sighted is thinking that worsening the conditions that brought about this atrocity is somehow magically going to reverse it.
    I fully support any measure that will remove the Nazis from parliament and from the public consciousness. Nothing you proposed is going to do that.

  7. Greg Laden says:

    What is short sighted is the EU not thinking of this to begin with. The Greeks need to understand that the rest of Europe, and America, are not interested in helping a Nazi government. Responding to the rise of Nazis with “Oh, they have an excuse for doing this” is inappropriate and I hope people who are considering that perspective would reconsider.

    I fully support any measure that will remove the Nazis from parliament and from the public consciousness. Nothing you proposed is going to do that.

    Do you have a proposal? I will drop my proposal in favor of any superior proposal. So far, though, instead of alternative suggestions (beyond leaving the status quo) so far all I’ve seen is people telling me to shut up when I complain about Nazis.

    This is exactly the world in which Nazis will allow to return.

    Think about it.

  8. lol.

    the EU installed a fascist (as in: member of a fascist party) “technocrat” to plunder what was left of the Greek economy. They won’t care that those fascists are now also getting elected.

    And anyway, I agree with the other commenters: Nazis get elected in Europe whenever people get pissed of at foreigners fucking over their country/economy. having foreigners actually making the economy worse will simply make the fascists with their claims of not letting foreigners fuck them over anymore that much more appealing

  9. Cafeeine says:

    I’m not complaining that you complain about Nazis. I’ve been doing the same in Greek forums all day.

    I agree to your point about the EU, but unless you have a time machine, there isn’t much we can do about it.

    The point I’m making is not “They have an excuse for it, so it’s alright” Its “X is the main cause of this, so proposing more X as the solution is counter-productive”. It’s not enough to say, “Well, its Nazis, so we have to do something!” What you do must actually correct the problem, not amplify it.

    The simplest point that could help this situation (the fustercluck that is the Greek political and financial system requires better than me to fix) would be for a joint European effort to deal with, accommodate, distribute through the EU or repatriate immigrants, rather than considering it a solely Greek problem. On the other hand, offering a tin ear and a slapping hand is only going to make the problem grow.

  10. Cafeeine says:

    Thank you Jadehawk.

  11. Greg Laden says:

    The simplest point that could help this situation (the fustercluck that is the Greek political and financial system requires better than me to fix) would be for a joint European effort to deal with, accommodate, distribute through the EU or repatriate immigrants, rather than considering it a solely Greek problem. On the other hand, offering a tin ear and a slapping hand is only going to make the problem grow.

    OK, that’s a substantive suggestions with merit, and I support it. It should happen.

    Having said that it needs to be remembered that a European nation has no business allowing a Nazi party to exist, and Nazis to become part of the government, no matter what the reason. I have a firm no-Nazi position. I’m not seeing that expressed as strongly as I’d like to see right now in others. That shocks and disturbs me. Perhaps this is a function of how many people you personally know who lost relatives in the Holocaust or who fought in WWII. A teeny bit more outrage and less of a casual attitude would earn my respect. The lack of outrage and the casual attitude earns my suspicion.

    The idea that a European country’s self pity is express by adding Nazi’s to the payroll is unthinkably horrific.

  12. simonsays says:

    I agree with my fellow Greek expatriate on this one. And I have some things to add since yo are showing a level of ignorance and short-sightedness that unfortunately plagues the political discourse in the US.

    Nothing, NOTHING, plays into the anti-EU and often anti-US rhetoric of the far-right than some lofty ultimatum from foreign countries about expelling Greece over the legitimate election of a licensed political party after the fact. The law of the land is what it is and they won their 7% (up from .3% 3 years ago) fair and square. I am sorry but you cannot legitimately claim to support democracy only when the result goes your way.

    Just like this bunch of thugs which have been known for 20 years got to 7% in three years they can lose 7% in three years if the root causes of peoples’ frustrations are dealt with.

    In short deal with problem, not it’s symptoms.

  13. Greg Laden says:

    Nothing says Nazi like Nazi.

    I can’t believe you are OK with Nazi’s. How dare you.

    I have not suggested dealing with symptoms instead of problems. Your aphorism is idiotic. I am suggesting that no modern nation should have Nazi’s in their government. Is that so hard for people to understand?

    More outrage about the Nazis, less jingoism and less insult please.

    Do read what I’ve said. I’ll change my position to any response that is potentially effective and strong. Telling me to be OK with Nazis is not heading in that direction, is it?

  14. David Evans says:

    The historical Nazis (i.e. German National Socialists) were rightly hated and despised because of their policy of racial genocide. Have you any evidence that any recently elected Greek MPs have such a policy?

  15. Pierce R. Butler says:

    Maybe I missed it: did Greg L call for a complete boycott of the Vatican yet?

  16. simonsays says:

    Nobody is telling you to be OK with it-the 93% of Greeks who did not vote for them certainly aren’t. I am not OK with it. Nobody in their right mind is OK with it. But please get the facts right. Nobody has so far suggested that the Golden Dawn party will be a “part of the Greek government” ie a ruling coalition. They will have representation in parliament which is not the same thing.

    I stand by my assessment that your proposal creates more problems than it solves.

  17. Cafeeine says:

    If you recall, Greece was actually under German occupation during WW2. I have lost family members to the Nazis, although I’m not old enough for those losses to have been personal. For about a year, I lived next to the spot German and Italian forces executed resistance fighters. The Greeks have felt both the sting of Nazi occupying forces, civil war and more recently the force of a military junta. As a nation we are far more aware of the issues of fascism than you seem to realize.

    Outrage, yes. But don’t make knee-jerk suggestions about Greece needing to feel the pain, when you are unaware of the pain they are already feeling, and which pain led to this radicalization in the first place.

    This is why your knee-jerk reaction does more harm than good. It is similar to the “ZOMG Terrorism!” that engulfed the US after 9/11 that unthinkingly allowed idiotic measures in the name of fighting terrorism.

    And Greg, calling people Nazi-lovers? Really? No one here has made any comment that could be construed in them being ‘okay’ with Nazis, so please stop that.

    What Simonsays said was that this was the result of legal elections, and we have to deal with that reality. You are aware that the same thing can happen in the US, right? Are you advocating that, should a neonazi candidate won by popular vote, you’d support removing him by force, or not allowing him to run in the first place? Îf not, then what exactly are you arguing for in Greece

    My personal opinion, having lived in Greece for the last two decades, is that this is not a rise of nazism in Greece, but the radicalization of all the right and far right that abandoned the main parties as untrustworthy. This was a protest vote, not a declaration of ideology. This was caused by many parties fomenting xenophobia in order to gather their numbers. The xenophobia stuck, but the parties still sunk.

  18. David Evans says:

    Greg, they call themselves “Golden Dawn”. I have seen no evidence that they call themselves Nazis. According to the BBC news “With a virulent anti-immigrant line, Golden Dawn are often labelled neo-Nazis.”

    I believe there are some virulently anti-immigrant politicians in the US. Should the rest of the world be considering sanctions?

    I would also point out that several European countries have laws against holocaust denial. For which they have been roundly condemned by US commentators, on grounds of freedom of speech.

  19. simonsays says:

    For additional info, here’s the wikipedia page for the party in question: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Dawn_(Greece)

    For the record, they do not have the intellectual honesty to refer to themselves as Nazis. However they have a swastika like symbol and claim that their salute is “Spartan” while also being holocaust deniers and defenders of the Aryan race. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad.

  20. Dara Ryan says:

    Hi Greg, I’m a regular reader and a first time commenter.
    The point has already been made above but I’d like to reiterate it: boycotts and economic sanctions would be entirely counter productive in this circumstance. These scumbags are getting traction because of the Greek economic woes, deepening those problems will serve to harden the anti-international sentiments and create more immoderate jingoism, not less.
    I understand your horror at this eventuality but horror isn’t a plan. What Greece needs to prevent the descent into bellicose tribalism is international support not international condemnation.

  21. What, wait what?
    So, we have a country that’s been plundered and is being starved and about 7% of voters decided to vote for some fucking fascists which is a serious problem. Now, your solution: starve them some more.

    Having said that it needs to be remembered that a European nation has no business allowing a Nazi party to exist, and Nazis to become part of the government, no matter what the reason.

    Says somebody living in the country that hosts the NSDAP/AO.
    First, those are two seperate issues: One is to allow them to exist (oh, I actually take a pretty firm approach on that, I think that parties that want to destroy freedom and human rights have no legitimacy to use the rights granted), the other one is to let them take part in government.
    So far, they’re not on government and it doesn’t look like they’re going to be.

    Perhaps this is a function of how many people you personally know who lost relatives in the Holocaust or who fought in WWII.

    You want my credentials on that? Can assure you that, apart from one grandfather, they’re quite impressive. Hitler and Stalin tried to wipe out my family in between them.

    A teeny bit more outrage and less of a casual attitude would earn my respect.

    I can add cut lips, an unpleasant afternoon in prison when I was 14 and some serious level of personal threat on that list, so, do I qualify to have an opinion?

    The idea that a European country’s self pity is express by adding Nazi’s to the payroll is unthinkably horrific.

    Self-pity?
    We’re talking about a country with an unemployment rate of 22% official in January. there’s no reason to suspect that the actual current number is lower, more likely that it’s way more than 25%.
    More than 20% of the poplation are officially poor.
    Pupils are fainting in school because they’re hungry, people take malnutritioned babies into hospitals.
    More than 250.000 people regularly go to soup-kitchens, that’s more than 2% of the population. And if the IMF, world bank and EU comission get their will that will get even worse.
    So, that’s what you call self-pity?
    So, you talk about history and the past? Well, think about what the fuck led to the rise of the NSDAP. It was the great depression, people being unemployed, people starving.
    And you seriously suggest that by starving a suffering country a bit more the Greek will become educated not to vote for Nazis?
    Or do you think that just because Greece is small it’s simply OK to abandon them, don’t worry what becomes of the people, it’s only 11. million of them?

  22. Greg Laden says:

    So, the emerging concensus, then, is that these Greek Golden Dawn guys are not really Nazis, and to the extent that they are, without EVIDENCE that they are not like the old timey Nazis we should not assume anything bad about them, and that even if they really were real Nazis that we shouldn’t really worry because Nazi’s are merely a symptom of a bad economy and it is perfectly natural and normal for Nazis to arise under these circumstances (they did indeed do so in the 1930s, after all) so therefor that’s OK, and since it is quite possible for people in the US to call themselves Nazis (it’s not like Nazis are considered a hate group or watched by the FBI or anything) in the US that therefore Greek Nazis are not a problem.

    So, I shouldn’t worry then. OK, fine. I withdraw my proposal to do anything at all about this problem. That is all, thank you very much.

  23. Dara Ryan says:

    “So, the emerging concensus, then, is that these Greek Golden Dawn guys are not really Nazis, and to the extent that they are, without EVIDENCE that they are not like the old timey Nazis we should not assume anything bad about them, and that even if they really were real Nazis that we shouldn’t really worry because Nazi’s are merely a symptom of a bad economy and it is perfectly natural and normal for Nazis to arise under these circumstances (they did indeed do so in the 1930s, after all) so therefor that’s OK, and since it is quite possible for people in the US to call themselves Nazis (it’s not like Nazis are considered a hate group or watched by the FBI or anything) in the US that therefore Greek Nazis are not a problem.”

    No. The emerging consensus is that calling for Greece to “feel some pain,” is completely the wrong thing to do and would in fact bring about the condition you claim to deplore.

  24. Greg Laden says:

    Dara, go back and read the goddamn fucking post. I’ve given you what you want. The ball is in your court, if you can manage that.

  25. Wow, Greg, that’s so many fucking strawmen that the local zoo could probably live on that for a year.

    Yes, they’re fucking Nazis.
    Yes, something should be done.
    Yes, it’s a well-known fact that times of extreme economic hardship combined with extreme foreign pressure an influence are factors that lead to rising support for fascists.
    And no, the fact that there are fascists in the USA doesn’t mean it’s OK, it just means that it’s hypocritical to get all up on a high horse. As for in parliament and government it’s better not to look too closely at some Republicans.

    I withdraw my proposal to do anything at all about this problem

    How about a proposal to do anything about it that doesn’t fucking punish 93% of Greek voters who didn’t vote for the fascists and all those minors who didn’t vote for the fascists and helps the Greek to deal with it themselves?
    Your prepositions might be right, but your proposal is simply a bad one.

  26. Cassandra says:

    Greg take a second to properly read over and understand what people have been saying because you really just have it ALL wrong. If you are going to initiate a political debate at least properly listen and try to see a situation from an alternate perspective rather than just your own.

  27. This is easy even for the asperger-skeptics among you.

    Nice neuro-typical shaming alongside.
    So, you want constructive proposals?
    How about this:
    -End Austerity and foreign control of Greece. Because actually at the moment they are under foreign control. Their government is pretty powerless. The Greek people have pretty little democratic rights at the moment because the “Troika” will threaten to bancrupt them whenever they should decide to actually govern their country themselves.

    -Get the Greek economy back on track. What they need is a Marshall plan, not a Morgentau plan.

    -Support those forces and groups in Greece that actually work against the fascists.

  28. Greg Laden says:

    Giliell: I admit I was trolling for the neuro-typical remark. Had no idea it would come so fast. Of corurse, you are making unfounded quasinormative assumptions.

    Those proposals sound good and you almost said something bad about Nazis. Close enough.

  29. Dara Ryan says:

    I imagine this:
    “Dara, go back and read the goddamn fucking post. I’ve given you what you want. The ball is in your court, if you can manage that.”
    refers to this:
    “This is easy even for the asperger-skeptics among you. Spend even a modicum of the effort you spent disavowing me on doing the same thing for Nazis, or get the fuck out of my life. I have given you what you wanted, a complete withdraw of all of my proposals. Now give me what I am asking for and what you are morally required to do or move along.”

    By which I understand that if I don’t disavow Greek Nazi party we won’t be buds any more.
    So: I don’t like Nazis. I don’t want to be one. I don’t want to know one.
    That being said, you’re acting like a child. Grow up.

  30. Greg Laden says:

    Greg take a second to properly read over and understand what people have been saying because you really just have it ALL wrong. If you are going to initiate a political debate at least properly listen and try to see a situation from an alternate perspective rather than just your own.

    Did you see that I deleted all of the positions I was originally suggesting and withdrew my support of them? In what way is that wrong exactly?

    I will be awaiting your statement of your position on Nazis.

  31. demi says:

    Oh Greg, dont you have an opinion? As a Greek let me assure you that Greece is not Nazi country, so you dont have to think of all these amazing ideas. Europe couldnt throw Greece away simply because the Greeks invented Europe. look it up in the dictionary big boy.I am terribly disgust by the fact that the golden dawn had some success in this years elections, but dont you forget that most of greeks voted for other parties totally different to this one? Isnt it our duty as people with brain, to help Greece? Also dont you forget that what happened is a result of the economic disarter . and it happens EVERY TIME in history, look it up. I strogly believe that Greece is a safe, democratic country who is totally against in everything that has to do with nazism. Freedom is something we should protect globally, so stop complaing and help us do something. Today its my problem, tomorrow it will be yours, be sure

  32. Greg Laden says:

    By which I understand that if I don’t disavow Greek Nazi party we won’t be buds any more.

    That is absolutely correct, and it is not too much to ask of one’s associates that they not be Nazi Sympathizers.

    So: I don’t like Nazis. I don’t want to be one. I don’t want to know one.

    That suits, thank you very much.

    That being said, you’re acting like a child. Grow up.

    Actually, that is just you not wanting to admit that you accidentally liked Nazis. The real actors-like-childreners will be those who can’t bring themselves to disavow the Nazis, even though I gave them every little thing they asked for (admitting I was totally wrong about everything) and eagerly await their sagacious advice as to what to do about Greece.

  33. Those proposals sound good and you almost said something bad about Nazis. Close enough.

    Yeah, because I have to prove my anti-fascist credentials to you. You look like 10-15 years older than me, but somehow I have a pretty big suspicion that I’ve been fighting Nazis on the street for fucking longer than you.

  34. Dara Ryan says:

    Actually, that is just you not wanting to admit that you accidentally liked Nazis.

    Source?

  35. Greg Laden says:

    Yeah, because I have to prove my anti-fascist credentials to you.

    Normally one would not, but when one comes vigorously to the apparent defense of them, than one does. It may well have been my misunderstanding of your situation, but that does not mean that clarification is not important. And thank you very much for fighting Nazis.

    It may well be the case that you’ve been doing more fighting of Nazis than me, but that all may depend on the different kinds of bad guys that we have the opportunity to go up against. There was that one time that some friends of mine and I identified, agitated against, and shut down an actual neo-Nazi cell that was doing all sorts of neo-Nazi stuff (they even had the uniforms). That was direct action on my part. Otherwise it’s been more undifferentiated racists.

  36. Greg Laden says:

    Source?

    Evidence???

  37. Dara Ryan says:

    You’re incoherent Greg. Where did I ‘accidentally like Nazis’?

  38. Cafeeine says:

    I almost made a new comment without reading that you amended the post. So here goes:

    Tell me in the comments whether or not Nazi’s rising in Greece is of concern for you, and what should be doe about it.

    It is definitely of concern to me. Remember I mentioned the junta before? That is ultimately the end result of any rise of Naziism in Greece, and I want to do anything I can to avoid that.

    Solutions are complex, and I won’t write an essay here for you Greg. Immigration reform is one leg of the problem as I mentioned. Debt relief programs that don’t reduce the economy to rubble, and a way to change the perception in Greece that the EU (in particularly Germany) is not actively trying to bankrupt Greece. The Greek people currently don’t believe the EU has their best interests at heart.

    If I had a better plan, I’d probably had been running in today’s elections.

    Nazi escapologist will be banned from this blog, unfrieneded, and defreinded, and possibly defenistrated. Why? Because I don’t like Nazi’s and if you do, you can’t be my friend or my colleague, and you can’t have my respect. Those of you who have come to the defense of the Nazi’s in Greece, either by finding a disagreement with me to be more important than disavowing a Nazi movement, or by actually claiming that they are either OK or not really Nazis or some other such garbage, are now on notice.

    This is easy even for the asperger-skeptics among you. Spend even a modicum of the effort you spent disavowing me on doing the same thing for Nazis, or get the fuck out of my life. I have given you what you wanted, a complete withdraw of all of my proposals. Now give me what I am asking for and what you are morally required to do or move along.

    Nazis were evil, murdering, racist fascist scumbags, and I detest them. You really need me to spell this out? Do I have to declare my disgust of all things Nazi before any issue, lest you call me a Nazi sympathizer? I agree with Dara, you’re acting like a child.

    I am concerned about Greek Nazis. I am currently more concerned about whether my mother will get her pension next month (which is not at all certain). I am concerned about my 20+ cousins, only 5 of which in Greece currently have jobs. I am concerned that the shitty situation in which they are in will bring worse shit than Hrisi Avgi to power. I’m concerned that Greece will go bankrupt. I’m concerned because my family and friends live in that country, it is as much my home as Canada is. And I’m also concerned when people the opinion of whom I have in other times respected lose their shit and call people who disagree with their knee-jerk reaction of economic sanctions and kicking Greece out of the EU, as Nazi sympathizers and demand a show of credentials.. Thats a GlennBeckization of the discussion that concerns me as well.

    P.S. I hate Nazis. Greek Nazis. German Nazis. Illinois Nazis. I hate them all.

  39. Normally one would not, but when one comes vigorously to the apparent defense of them, than one does

    No, people came to the defense of the Greek people, the overwhelming majority of them, 93% of them, having not voted for the Nazis.
    It’s only you who mixed up those two things continously.

  40. Roger says:

    The ‘radical leftists’ Syriza have received about 17% of the votes cast.
    Do you think this mitigates of exacerbates the vote of abouyt 7% for Golden Dawn?

  41. Greg Laden says:

    Demi, you just elected about 7% of your Parliament as Nazis. That does not make Greek a Nazi country, but none of the countries of Europe in the early 1930s were Nazi countries when they only had a few Nazis around either. The number of Nazis in Greece is growing, just like it did during the 1930s.

    I’m very glad, and it is obvious, and everyone knew, even me, that most Greeks voted for non-Nazis. That’s how this whole “percentage” thing works.

    But, this “Also dont you forget that what happened is a result of the economic disarter” is a pretty shitty attitude. Is your shame at your compatriots who voted for Nazi’s lessened by their ignorance?

    ” and it happens EVERY TIME in history, look it up.”

    And, that, Demi, is exactly my point. Look it up.

    ” I strogly believe that Greece is a safe, democratic country who is totally against in everything that has to do with nazism. Freedom is something we should protect globally, so stop complaing and help us do something.”

    I hope you are right.

    And I did something. I became outraged at Nazi’s in the Greek Parlement. And I was told by a bunch of people including many that claim Greek ties to shut up.

    I will not shut up. It is wrong that you have these Nazi’s in parlement. I’m saying that out loud. So far that is the only contribution I can manage.

    Other than that, I’m also suggesting that people stop making excuses for Nazis, stop suggesting that people who call themselves Nazi’s may not be so bad, and yes, that people actively repudiate Nazis.

    “Today its my problem, tomorrow it will be yours, be sure”

    Which is my point. But your nationalism has blinded you to realize this. Why is that?

  42. SAWells says:

    “You accidentally liked Nazis!” is the weirdest taunt ever. Greg, you can’t seriously have confused “Let’s not destroy Greece because of a minority of fuckwits” with “I love me some fascists”.

  43. Greg Laden says:

    Dara, no, actually, you called them scumbags. I tend to agree. But you still find it much more important to tell me how wrong I am than to repudiate them. I’m not sure why that is. Did I do something bad to, say, Europe, or something?

    Cafeeine, I share your concerns about the economy in Greece. It really sucks.

  44. Greg Laden says:

    SAWells, what is your position on the issues, then? I don’t give a fuck what your position on me is.

  45. Greg Laden says:

    Roger: “The ‘radical leftists’ Syriza have received about 17% of the votes cast.
    Do you think this mitigates of exacerbates the vote of abouyt 7% for Golden Dawn?”

    Actually, I don’t think it works that way. Do you? Does anybody? Is is OK to have some Nazi’s around as long as they are just part of a larger spectrum?

    I think, no.

  46. Roger says:

    ‘I’m also suggesting that people stop making excuses for Nazis, stop suggesting that people who call themselves Nazi’s may not be so bad, and yes, that people actively repudiate Nazis.’

    You use ‘Nazis’and ‘Nazi’s’ interchageably, as in this example. Is this supposed to mean something? If so, what?

  47. Dara Ryan says:

    But you still find it much more important to tell me how wrong I am than to repudiate them.

    I told you you were wrong because you were wrong. You obviously agree that you were wrong because you retracted.
    If you had posted something lauding Nazis I’d have repudiated Nazis (and you.) You didn’t, you wrote advocating sticking the boot into a country whos’ civil society is being eroded by a crippling debt burden because one of their minority political parties is nasty.
    You quickly climbed down from that position and are now trying to salvage some sort of moral high ground by setting an anti-Nazi pledge as the bar to engagement. You’re not fooling anyone.

  48. SAWells says:

    Position on issues: Greece needs an economic recovery, which probably has to predicated on its leaving the euro.

    Nazis are bad. Duh.

    Also, we should destroy the French economy because the Front National got 18% in the presidential election. Anyone defending France is clearly a fascist sympathiser. That’s how the logic works, right?

  49. Also, we should destroy the French economy because the Front National got 18% in the presidential election. Anyone defending France is clearly a fascist sympathiser. That’s how the logic works, right?

    Fuck. Should have stocked up on wine over easter, now I’m not allowed anymore.
    Oh, wait, they finally elected the socialist, one many people have hopes in to stop fucking austerity.
    Does that mean I can have the wine but have to feel bad about it?

  50. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says:

    This is easy even for the asperger-skeptics among you.

    What.

    The.

    FUCK?

  51. Cafeeine says:

    I hope you are right.

    And I did something. I became outraged at Nazi’s in the Greek Parlement. And I was told by a bunch of people including many that claim Greek ties to shut up.

    Oh bullshit Greg. The comments are still up there for people to read. What people objected to was your knee-jerk reaction to call for a boycott, for removal of Greece from the EU, which showed you have no idea of what’s going on in Greece, or how that would effect the situation. In short, you got outraged, you blurted out the first stupid thing that came to you and you smeared those who called you on it as Nazi sympathizers. I am still stunned at this and I has significantly lowered my opinion of you.
    You’re using the ‘nazi’ card the way the Bush administration used the ‘terrorist’ card. That you can’t seem to see that astounds me.

    The reason I suspect people emphazised how wrong you were, rather than how wrong the nazis are àbecause we’re on your blog, talking to you, not to the fuckin’ nazis! I didn’t expect I would need to present my anti-fascism qualifications before pointing out that your proposed solution blew, and made the problem worse.

  52. Roger says:

    ‘Actually, I don’t think it works that way. Do you? Does anybody? Is is OK to have some Nazi’s around as long as they are just part of a larger spectrum?

    I think, no.’

    There were some Nazis about before- about 0.3%- as part of a larger spectrum and you weren’t as concerned. An increase in support to 7% seems to be disproportionally important to you. Why?
    The fact that Syriza has also greatly increased their share of the vote suggests that it it is not only or simply a matter of Nazism here. The fact that the E.U. has insisted that Greece use policies to deal with their budgetary deficit that Herbert Hoover or Montague Norman would have regarded as old-fashioned and needlessly harsh suggests that the rise in votes for extremist parties is a consequence of other factors and that it would be more effective to deal with those factors first.

  53. Cafeeine says:

    Another issue that I didn’t mention above was that people have grown distrustful of mainstream politicians and parties in general. There is great outrage in Greece about the fact that no politician, has ever served a day in prison for corruption. Indeed, the ruling parties often vote for amnesty laws, which render them immune to prosecution. This led to a move against any politicians that were seen as ‘establishment’.

  54. Jean-Paul says:

    We should just skip the formalities and blow the country off the fucking map. There your problem is solved: no more Greece, no more Nazis.

  55. Greg Laden says:

    You quickly climbed down from that position and are now trying to salvage some sort of moral high ground by setting an anti-Nazi pledge as the bar to engagement. You’re not fooling anyone.

    I am not trying to salvage any moral high ground. I never stepped off my own particular moral ground, high or otherwise. If I was trying to preserve some position why would I have dropped the whole thing? I expressed outrage about Nazis in Parliament. I expressed it in a less than ideal way (which I have fully retracted) but the response I got included quite a bit of excuse making for Nazis being there, and an insufficient amount of outrage about it to make me comfortable. I am sorry if your butt hurts over this.

    ” What people objected to was your knee-jerk reaction to call for a boycott, for removal of Greece from the EU, which showed you have no idea of what’s going on in Greece, or how that would effect the situation.”

    Yes, and I’m so glad they pointd out the error of my ways.

    The alternative suggestion have been coming in rather slowly, but there are some good ideas in there.

    I strongly object to the idea that Nazis rising in a government is symptomatic of bad times. It may be a result of that, but it is sort of like noticing that a bear is chasing you and instead of climbing a tree or taking some other action, simply noting that when bears are hungry they go eat something.

    And there are still a couple of people who have suggested that these Nazis are not Nazis or that Nazis are not so bad or that their own bad feelings about greek economics are more important than my concern over Nazis getting elected in a poverty stricken country in Europe like in the old days.

    You can make this about me all you want. You can spend all day and all night making this about me. I’ll remind you again that I deleted the me part of this argument.

    It was about Nazis, it is about Nazis, and it will continue to be about Nazis.

    Roger “There were some Nazis about before- about 0.3%- as part of a larger spectrum and you weren’t as concerned. An increase in support to 7% seems to be disproportionally important to you. Why?”

    What?

    Cafeeine[55] … sounds a little like Tea Party esque disaffection.

  56. Cafeeine says:

    Sounds a little like Tea Party esque disaffection

    I’d say there is a lot of commonality to be found, especially in the scapegoating.

  57. Greg, you seem to be confabulating disagreement on implementation with disagreement on goals. As such, I am tabooing the word “NAZI” and all direct synonyms from my use for the purposes of this conversation. I hope you will do the same so we can discuss precisely what you mean by it.

    I, and as far as I can tell every commenter so far, despise jingoistic and fascist policies (especially those that historically have contributed to holocaust-like scenarios) and want to prevent their enactment in all governments worldwide just as you do. I do my best to keep those misguided enough to espouse them and attempt their enactment out of power where I live.

    Nevertheless, and as a general rule, I do not condemn human beings as irrevocably morally depraved for making poor decisions during a time of desperation; as you seem to be as you throw that defamatory label around as though it gives you license to indulge in bigotry and petty tribalism by virtue of its political correctness. It doesn’t, and you are being a bully.

    I am glad you’ve changed you mind about the policy you originally espoused and are looking for better ideas. This shows a degree of intellectual honesty that I feel deserves my respect, so thank you for bringing the issue to greater attention and trying to be helpful. Unfortunately, I don’t have a good knowledge base from which to propose solutions myself and any policies I might come up with would be embarrassingly naive, so I will refrain from baseless pontification.

    I sincerely hope you achieve your aims…with as little collateral damage as possible. Here’s to mixed first impressions!

  58. Roger says:

    ‘“There were some Nazis about before- about 0.3%- as part of a larger spectrum and you weren’t as concerned. An increase in support to 7% seems to be disproportionally important to you. Why?”

    What?’
    0.3% support, which you didn’t seem to object to, is just as much ‘part of a larger spectrum’ as 7%, which inspires extreme umbrage.

    ‘I strongly object to the idea that Nazis rising in a government is symptomatic of bad times.’
    Nazis aren’t ‘rising in a government’, though.
    ‘It may be a result of that, but it is sort of like noticing that a bear is chasing you and instead of climbing a tree or taking some other action, simply noting that when bears are hungry they go eat something.’
    But the bear isn’t chasing us; it’s chasing Greeks. It’s useful for future reference to remember that starving bears doesn’t solve the problem.

  59. Dara Ryan says:

    You’re confusing the narrative:
    You advocated attacking Greece to punish the Nazis.
    People called you on it, citing details of the political reality in Greece.
    You retracted your original position and simultaneously tried to smear the people who disagreed with you as crypto-Nazis.

    Like I said, you’re not fooling anyone.

  60. laurentweppe says:

    OK, my skeptical friends. I’ve withdrawn all of my proposals because of your objectives.

    Good, because I was starting to wonder if I should ask the newly elected commie-nazi-atheist-muslim-really-a-card-carrying-socialist French president to preemptively nuke the 50 most pro-wingnut american electoral districts. I mean: since you elect fascists in all but name, radical solutions to make American get rid -in pain- of its homegrown far-right nutjobs have to be contemplated, right?
    *
    And before you start godwinning me for daring a sarcastic answer, look at you in the mirror: you’ve been playing with the idea of using retortion in order to punish people for voting.
    Not only is this immoral (“I despise the people you vote for, therefore I’m entitled to hurt you“), this is also hypocritical (would you want to suffer from retorsions meant to punish people voting for fundamentalist polticians, knowing that said retorsion will only increase their resolve?) and completely inefficient:
    People start to vote for the far-right when they believe to be playing a zero-sum game against the rest of the world and that therefore their own prosperity depends on the ruin of someone else. So if you uses economical retorsion against Greece, it’s nazi voters will be conforted in their opinion that the rest of the World is trying to screw them.
    ***

    Having said that it needs to be remembered that a European nation has no business allowing a Nazi party to exist, and Nazis to become part of the government, no matter what the reason

    And many european countries do not allow nazis parties to exist: so guess what said nazis do: they take another name, and talk to their audience with coded language: that’s what happened in France, in Belgium, in the Netherlands, in Scandinavia, in Austria…
    In Germany, when the government tried to outlaw the far-right party NDP during the early 2000’s because it’s a nazy party in disguise, it failed and was censored by the courts because it lacked sufficient evidence.
    *****
    *****

    Position on issues: Greece needs an economic recovery, which probably has to predicated on its leaving the euro.

    Yeah, right, and while we’re proposing stupid solutions, I think that the ten poorest US states should leave the US dollar, print their own money, and use that trick to build their recovery.
    *
    If Greece left the Euro, coming back to the Drachma, the new/old currency would be devaluated immediately: everyone would know that Greece is about to print tons of money, so eveyone would try to get rid of their Drachma as soon as they can: it would cause a mad bank run which would kill the already moribond greek banking system, the Grek state without the Eurozone vouching for it could not borrow money anymore, which means that the 40% of the work force would not be paid anymore. Add in that the brutal devaluation of the new/old Drachma would mean the price of importations (including fucking oil) would skyrocket: and then you’d have a real famine (and also a high likelyhood of a military coup).
    *
    The fact is, while a lot of people love to point fingers toward the evil brusselian bureaucrats, they are the reason Greece has not yet collapsed: right wing european parties wanted to abandon Greece and let it face it’s woes alone, then use the starvation of the Greek people as a cautionnary tale for the rest of Europe: the left parties were against such a solution, but being the minority, they would not force the european institutions to move. It was the technocrats who wanted to let Greece kep on borrowing in order to feed its people who made the difference by convincing the conservative parties that ruining Greece would reverberate through all of the EU and eventually hurt them as well. But there was a price for allowing Greece to keep on feeding its population: a bunch of austerity measures officially meant to prove that Greece was seriously dealing with its budget but in reality a way to give satisfaction to the conservative voting blocks.
    *
    Now, as painful as it was, the austerity that Greece is facing right now is actually much much lesser evil that what the european right had in mind in the begining of the crisis. But it’s not going to make Greece better: Greece’s woes are first and foremost of a fiscal nature: the country has no cadastre, the tax perception is a clownish joke, the country pays for a bloated military supposedly meant to “protect” it from fellow Nato member Turkey, tax exemptions and privileges which border on the repugnant have been given to the orthodox church and the upper-class: these are what s plaguing Greece and until the country institutions are fixed, it will remain a broken economy.
    *
    What can help the Greek economy get better is the result of the other election. Hollande, France’s new president is most definitely Not an austerity fetichist, and unlike the USA where the Governors have little influence outside their states, in Europe, heads of state and governments are the most powerful players on the table: putting a left-wing president in France is actually altering the balance of power throughout the Union, while in Germany, the austerity fetichists are predicted to be the biggest loosers in Germnay’s next general election next year. Greece will have to fix its broken tax system, but as the austerity-only camp weakens,, there’s a chance that Greece treatment becomes less painful in the coming months.

  61. SundogA says:

    7% of the populace of Greece voted for what is, effectively, their Nazi Party. What should we do about it?

    Answer: Nothing.*

    First, we have no right to interfere with the internal politics of another sovereign nation. Second, said political situation is so screwed up due to the economic turmoil that we’d probablty do more harm than good (like making it into an “us vs. them” battle, with the Nazi’s lumped in with all other Greeks – in other words making the Nazi’s look good). Third, it’s 7%. Wake me when they hold the balance of power.

    Extremists of all stripes flower in periods of strife and economic hardship. They get dropped just as fast when the good times roll. This is something to keep an eye on, nothing more.

    *This isn’t to say we should help out Greece. But we should be doing it because they’re an ally and a friend, not because of spikes on the voting graph.

  62. Greg Laden says:

    christopherdugan, I am not interested in denying the term Nazi. That would be deply offensive.

    Sundog, doing nothing has been done before. That should never happen again.

  63. tcsf says:

    Greg is right. There’s just no excuse for Nazis, and whatever the reason people might have for voting for them, it’s unimaginable that Nazis can possibly help with any of the problems that are angering people. It’s a toxic and dangerous set of ideas that will encourage similarly disposed people elsewhere.

  64. ronstrong says:

    While the rise of Nazis in Greece is disturbing, I am not comfortable with the idea of punishing 100% of Greeks for the bad decisions of 7% of Greeks. And, like Sundog (BTW, Sundog, are you the Sundog that used to post on the JREF forum and on SC?), I am also not comfortable with going to another country and saying “Hey, you voted in a way we don’t like, change it or else”, ESPECIALLY when we are looking at the votes of a small minority, rather than the country as a whole. ESPECIALLY ESPECIALLY when they haven’t done anything but talk yet.

    For that matter, more than 7% of my fellow Americans vote for ideas that I find morally repulsive, I would feel like a hypocrite telling Greeks that we are going to punish them for the actions of a minority that small when even larger percentages of our own citizens hold morally repugnant views.

    When/if this Golden Dawn party begins to get their worst ideas made into law, then it might be worth looking into what to do about them. But when they are just a small fringe group that managed to pick up some seats…its a little premature to call for some sort of “punishment” for Greece as a whole. Until then its better to see what can be done to support the 93% of Greek voters who DIDN’T vote Nazi.

  65. D.J. Miller says:

    ronstrong, the “punish everybody” idea has been dropped, very ceremoniously I might add, many comments back. Please try to keep up.

  66. MatthewL says:

    Though this has been alluded to it feels like it needs said more explicitly.

    The rise of the Nazis in Germany* was largely due to the onerous conditions imposed on them by foreign governments at the treaty of Versailles, and the consequent collapse of their economy. Any further punishment of Greece by outsiders will only worsen the situation. The best treatment for this diseare would likely be anything that will improve the Greek economy. Making the patient sicker is generally not the best path to a cure.

    This may be something that only the EU, US, WTO, PRC, etc can really do much about. If so then it is incumbent on all who care about this to speak as loudly and clearly about it in whatever ways we can. Our governments are not entirely unresponsive to public outcry and well placed remarks to the right ears may also help.

    There may well also be things that private citizens can do individually and collectively. Rather than boycott Greek products why don’t we find out who the good guys are and give them whatever support we can.

    Perhaps there are vintners who are outspoken against the nazis. We could make a point to buy their wine, perhaps to drink at anti-nazi parties (it would be especially cool to Skype the vineyard if its not too early in the morning).

    Direct donations to their political opponents are probably not possible (it’s illegal in the US and probably not the best PR anyway) but perhaps there are NGOs working in Greece that could use help. They could be simply contributing to the general welfare or actively promoting tolerance and opposing bigotry. Such efforts would not likely be seen as interfering with Greek sovereignty nor even smell of foreign meddling (though the Nazis might attempt to frame it as such).

    * I’m not as familiar with the conditions in Spain and Italy prior to the fascist takeovers. We’re they also due to harsh economic conditions, or Germany’s example and support, or what? Of course fascism was not altogether unpopular in the US and UK at the time.

  67. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says:

    This is easy even for the asperger-skeptics among you.

    As a person diagnosed with asperger’s syndrome, I should be very offended at your ablist bullshit.

    But after reading this strange mental meltdown you display, I can only seem to feel deep pity.

    Countless people have explained to you that punishing an entire country because of seven percent of its population is the WRONG solution, but you seem to ignore that and just call everyone nazi lovers, or nazi sympathizers, or ‘accidentally liking nazis’, whatever the fuck that means.

    The fuck is wrong with you, man?

  68. Greg Laden says:

    I like the idea of drinking anti-Nazi wine.

  69. Greg Laden says:

    Countless people have explained to you that punishing an entire country because of seven percent of its population is the WRONG solution, but you seem to ignore that

    BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT

    You are a moron. Can you read? Everyone I personally know who has asbergers is way smarter than you. I don’t believe you.

    The fuck is wrong with you, man?

    From your point of view? Everything, and that is never going to change. Now go away.

  70. SundogA says:

    Actually, Greg, the last time we did nothing in similar circumstances…the situation resolved itself fairly nicely and quietly. That was when Jean-Marie le Pen got over 16% in the initial and over 17% in the second ballot for President of France in 2002.
    A LOT of similar events have occurred in the over half-century between 1933 and today. And the vast majority have resolved themselves efficiently and effectively and needing no action by us. Actions may need to be taken…when Greece has it’s own Kristallnacht or decides to annex Macedonia. Actions now would be premature, rash and unnecessary.
    Ronstrong, no, diferent Sundog. It’s not that uncommon a handle, unfortunately.

  71. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says:

    Yeah, I mean, you ‘retracted’ it. Big whoop. You don’t seem to get why you were wrong though, and the whole thing is more of a ‘fine, I’ll take it back ya big babies!’ statement than any actual admission of being wrong.

    FTR, I hate nazis as much as anyone else, but feel free to call me a nazi-loving poopoohead and unfriend me or ban me or whatever you do anyways, because your regard means precisely as much as a duck fart to me.

  72. Greg Laden says:

    Sundog, I was referring to the 1930s. You must have heard about how many people looked the other way as the Nazis rose in power and all that. My reference to that was pretty clear.

    You have a modicum of a point in what you say but I don’t agree that waiting until a country annexes its neighbors to take notice is anything but cynical.

    But since you are against taking actions now, could you please enumerate for me which of the suggestions I am currently making that involve actions, you know, the ones you are telling me not to advocate for? At the moment I’ve withdrawn every single one of the suggestions I’ve made and I’m asking for others to suggest some. Some have been made. Are those the actions you are suggesting not be made? I just want you to be clear what you are arguing against.

  73. Greg Laden says:

    Coyote, I said I was wrong. But you won’t accept that. You never will. You are incapable of that, apparently.

    FTR, I hate nazis as much as anyone else, but feel free to call me a nazi-loving poopoohead

    I hear you saying that you hate Nazis, and I’ve not called you a Nazi-loving anything. Can you understand that?

    your regard means precisely as much as a duck fart to me.

    That is not true. If it was true you would go away. But you are not going to go away, because you can’t. I’m positive of that. You won’t be able to stop yourself from commenting.

  74. SundogA says:

    Greg, I am well aware of what you were referencing, thus my reference to 1933 – the year the NAZI Party took power in Germany.
    I am not arguing against anything; I am advocating sitting back and trusting the Greek people to deal with Greek problems as they see fit. America has it’s problems too, and those are up to us to fix. View the situation, see it for what it is – the possibility of a problem in the future. Then keep a weather eye on it and see what develops while we clean up our own mess.

  75. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says:

    You’re correct about that, Mr Laden, unless banned I’m not leaving until I’m well and truly bored of this.

    Look, I’m sure you know what a ‘notpology’ is. That’s what your strikethrough and grayout job on your absolutely hideous proposals looks like to me. A notpology. A token action meant to placate.

    I note you haven’t even gone through the formality of a notpology for for your ablist remark, but in an odd way I kind of appreciate that. Notpologies are obnoxious.

  76. Greg Laden says:

    Greek neo-Nazi party Golden Dawn warned rivals and reformers Sunday that “the time for fear has come” after exit polls showed them securing their entry in parliament for the first time in nearly 40 years.
    “The time for fear has come for those who betrayed this homeland,” Golden Dawn leader Nikos Michaloliakos told a news conference at an Athens hotel, flanked by menacing shaven-headed young men.
    “We are coming,” the 55-year-old said as supporters threw firecrackers outside.

    …”Greece is only the beginning,” he shouted at reporters ..

    …Once part of the country’s political fringe, the Hryssi Avgi (Golden Dawn) had already made headlines in 2010 by electing Michaloliakos, 55, to Athens’ city council…

    …Shortly after being elected to the council thanks to more than 10,000 votes in the Greek capital, Michaloliakos made waves by giving two fascist salutes captured by a television camera….

    …All illegal migrants “should leave our country,” he said….

    …The mainstream parties on the right, including New Democracy of the country’s likely next prime minister Antonis Samaras, have been forced to boost their own anti-migration rhetoric to keep up….

    -http://goo.gl/9KR0X

  77. Greg Laden says:

    Michaloliakos and friends:

  78. Bob Allen says:

    Meanwhile – all of the folk above appear to want to talk about the Nazis in Greece – and totally ignore the significance of the Truman Doctrine of 1947 – which is actually America’s first major Foreign Policy effort in Architecting – constructing and forming – the Cold War !!!!!!

    The so-called Nazis in Greece are small potatoes compared to the BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of dollars that America spent on Architecting and furthering the Cold War – from 1947 – 1992 – when America “won” the Cold War with the collapse of the USSR.

    Again – BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of US Taxpayer dollars – spent on the Cold War – ALSO – over 50,000 American DEAD – and MILLIONS of non-American DEAD – and to discussion above wants to place the focus upon so-called Nazis within Greece !!!!!!

    NO wonder Americans have so little understanding of HOW – America actually Architected the COLD WAR – spent BILLIONS of dollars on “winning” the COLD WAR – WASTING over 50,000 American lives in the process – AND KILLING – MILLIONS of non-Americans in the process !~!!!!!!~!

    The Good Dr. Joe Goebbels whould get a great laugh from the contents of most of this particular blog !!!!!

    Hail Victory – or as it’s pronounced in German – Sieg Heil !!!

  79. thunk says:

    Bob Allen:

    Do you realize that is not the topic we are discussing right now? Maybe the whole COLD WAR – TRUMAN DOCTRINE thing is a red herring?

  80. Greg Laden says:

    Laughing coyote, my action is sincere. I have in fact recalled those suggestions and I’m listening to what other people say. I absolutely mean that.

    I’m not sure where “apologies” come in. I am sorry for what? To whom? I made some suggestions, I was shouted down, I’ve withdrawn them. This is not a situation where apologies are needed.

    Do you feel you need an apology for my suggestions regarding the political situation in Greece? Why would you?

    Your insistence that I am not not sincere in my withdrawing my suggestion is flat out wrong. Your insistance that I apologize for making these suggestions is laughable.

  81. SundogA says:

    Um, Bob, this whole thread is about the Nazis in Greece. If you want to talk about something else, there are plenty of other places on the web you can go to do that.

  82. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says:

    I suppose ‘notpology’ was a bad word for it, but it was the closest I could come under the circumstances. A sort of token ‘Fine, ya big crybabies!’ gesture.

    If your action is sincere and then I’m just mis-perceiving, well, that’s more than possible (see above), but I can’t lie, that’s sort of how it felt.

    As for alternate solutions, well I’ve seen a few good ones above.

  83. The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says:

    Oh, and your ‘asperger’ comment definitely deserves an apology, though I know better than to expect it.

  84. D.J. Miller says:

    “The time for fear has come for those who betrayed this homeland,”

    Betray: 31
    Enemies: 56 times
    Fear: 71 times
    Reference to Homeland: 347 times

    Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler

  85. Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven says:

    You are a moron. Can you read? Everyone I personally know who has asbergers is way smarter than you. I don’t believe you.

    Greg, the Asperger’s comment wasn’t any more defensible than if you’d said “all you PMSing skeptics.” I found it hurtful and more importantly gratuitous, and feel like an apology and retraction is in order. :/

  86. A. R says:

    Something tells me that the Greek people are not stupid enough to repeat the mistakes of the German people in 1933. But that’s just me. Besides, do you really think that Germany would let the Greeks stay in the EU if they thought it was a serious issue?

  87. Bob Allen says:

    Umm – the Original Nazis in Greece – followed by the Truman Doctrine – followed by neo-Nazis in Greece – Donja think that the Truman Doctrine is far more important than the Brittish support of the Royalists – supported them from late ’44 to early ’47 – with the Americans picking up this support with the Truman Doctrine – and kinda furthered by the current neo-Nazis thingy in Greece – with America, through the Truman Doctrine, providing the current environment for the current neo-Nazis – don’t you think that there are significant relationships here ?????

    Again, Hail Victory – or as pronouned in German – Sieg Heil !!!

  88. Greg Laden says:

    [85] I was not aware that “asperger” was an insult. I’m sorry you feel that way. You should try to come to terms with that.

    Azkyroth, what is a “PMSing?”

    OK, though, fine. I apologize for mentioning a thing about aspergers.

    I do find it disturbing, though, that so many people require the world to be divided between those who are “neuro-typical” and those who would thus be “neuro-atypical” and that the assumption that everyone you don’t know is “neuro-typical” is acceptable. This underlies some very poor assumptions about how people need to, can, or can not relate to each other. Think about it. I won’t bring it up again.

  89. SundogA says:

    Bob, the relationship you’re talking about is tenuous at best. The Germans invaded Greece in WWII, it is true. But the Truman Doctrine was created and imposed years later, after the Nazis were expelled and defeated. Plus, hte operation of the Doctrine in Greece was rather light anyway – more a case of ensuring that each of the Governments of Greece (Monarchy, Dictatorship, Republic) wasn’t communist than saying what they actually were.

  90. D.J. Miller says:

    A.R., why not? Were the Germans of your especially stupid?

    The fact that any “Nazis” were elected this year tells us that repeating history is more than possible. (And not only in Greece as has been pointed out.)

  91. D.J. Miller says:

    “your” = “yore” (damn cell phone)

  92. Bob Allen says:

    The Truman Doctrine is highly significant – because – without the left (which the Truman Doctrine enforced within Greece) the environment is ALWAYS ripe for neo-Nazis !!!!!!!

    Additionally – the Truman Doctrine – and America’s Architecture of and for the Cold War – including the creating of the IMF and World Bank – is what made the current environment with Greece – possible !!!!!

    Hail Victory – or as pronounced in German – Sieg Heil !!!!

  93. SundogA says:

    D.J., on that you are correct. The real lesson of 1933 is this: It CAN hapen here.
    But there’s a big difference between “can” and “is”.

  94. SundogA says:

    Um, Bob, the US generally used the Bretton Woods agencies (and others) to OPPOSE the left. Their primary goal Cold War wise was to promote right-wing governments.
    The Cold War has been over for twenty years now. The US no longer needs to oppose anyone using these organizations. Why would the right wing flourish now, when they DON’T have a lot of international support, when they didn’t back when they did?

  95. Bob Allen says:

    Finally – someone seeing Bretten Woods and the Cold War – as supporting right-wing (neo-Nazi included) governments.

    And although America “won” the Cold War in 1992 – the effects of that “win” continue to be within the world of today.

    Greece, North Africa, Southeast Asia, Middle East – ALL experiencing the on-going effects of America’s Architecture of the Cold War !!!!!

    The EU is one of the brighter spots within the after-effect spectrom, but it still boils down to – Right Vs. Left, world-wide. And the Cold War – and after-effects – still the “win” of Right over Left !!!!!

  96. ginseng says:

    I’m German (which should be enough credentials, I suppose?). In Germany, I see a negative correlation between income and votes for a Nazi party – the better the living standard the fewer votes for a Nazi party. And yes, there are Nazi parties in Germany although they usually are always on the verge of being banned. In difficult times I can see people complaining about those foreigners stealing their jobs or about corrupt and uncaring politicians and then vote for a Nazi party even though they are not what you would call a Nazi. Just misguided.

    7 % for a Nazi party is a concern but not everyone who voted is a Nazi and many just gave them their vote to stick it to the man, so to speak. One cannot take this result without looking at the economical and political situation in Greece. If you want less votes for Nazis you need to help Greece – punishing them will only help the Nazis because that is why they got votes in the first place. How to help them I don’t know – that is not my job. But I know what NOT to do. For example, Hitler came to power through a combination of the world economic crisis and the bitterness the German people felt after the punishment for WWI. Sounds similar to Greece today, right?

  97. ginseng says:

    @Bob Allen:
    Your book will be under “Fiction -> Conspiracy” in the bookstore, I assume?

  98. Greg, why the hell do you keep talking about Nazis in government in Greece? They are in parliament, not government. I’m getting suspicious that you actually don’t understand how that flavour of parliamentary democracy works.

    And as for the Aspbergers referrence: No, people don’t suppose that everybody else is neurotypical. People object to using the word as a slur.

    ++++

    In Germany, when the government tried to outlaw the far-right party NDP during the early 2000?s because it’s a nazy party in disguise, it failed and was censored by the courts because it lacked sufficient evidence.

    Small factual correction: The attempt to outlaw the NPD failed because that whole party is full with members of the German Verfassungsschutz, the secret service that is allegedly there to protect us against people like them. It’s only that people are a bit suspicious now that it’s not so much like the Verfassungsschutz has agents at the NPD but rather that the NPD has quite a lot of agents at the Verfassungsschutz.
    Because somehow a troup of fucking Neo-Nazi murderers with ties to the NPD and NPD/Verfassungsschutz members managed to operate for years right under their nose…
    It’s a funny thing, we could get rid of them easily without banning them: Call in the multiple multi-million penalties they’re due. They’re up to their ears in debt anyway, several millions they would have to pay quickly would probably fix the problem nicely.

  99. There are Nazi parties (if you define “Nazi” simply to mean nativist/racist and ultra-nationalist populism) in every European country. They generally operate on the fringes with little to no support, until times get hard, when their support grows suddenly as disaffected voters shovel votes to them. This has always been the case. As a German commenter observed, Hitler eventually came to power when enough people shoveled enough votes his way for reasons having a lot to do with political and economic humiliations visited on Germany after WW I.
    Ranting and raving about Nazis from the USA (where, as a current resident, I can spot quite a few “Nazis” myself close to home) is nothing more than empty rhetorical nonsense. The Greek people are not about to send the Nazis packing. 7% of the vote tells me that there a fair number of pissed-off people in Greece right now, for obvious reasons, and people perhaps need to be listening to them a bit more, and waving their hands and saying “eek! you’re a bunch of nazi sympathizers!” a lot less.

  100. rorschach says:

    What a terrible nonsense. There is a fairly stable contingent of not only fascist voters but also fascists in various state and federal parliaments in Europe, 18% of the popular vote went to the fascists in France according to the recent presidential election results, up to 10% in some parts of Germany, and you find a 5-10% contingent of Neonazis in most other member states of the EU. I’m actually surprised that Greece only managed 7%, because the people there most certainly feel existentially threatened by the recent austerity measures. Greg’s suggestion to throw Greece out of the EU for this shows a remarkable amount of ignorance.

  101. StevoR says:

    Greg Laden, you are usually so much smarter and better than what you’ve posted here. Your comments here disappoint and sadden me.

    I guess we all have our bad days – I’ve had a few myself – and this must be one of yours. I hope you are okay and things get better.

    Oh & Nazis are utterly vile, sad, worthless, bullying, hateful, pitiful scum.

    Greece is in a hell of a bad situation right now. I feel symapthy for its people.

    I don’t know what can be done, I don’t see any obvious clear and easy answers, perhaps there aren’t any.

    This extreme right-wing party is inparliament NOT inpower. They haven’t yet passed any laws or started (officially for want of a better word) persecuting people home or abroad.

    My suggestions for whatever little they’re worth

    – Watch closely, be aware of things, think and reflect upon what’s happening.

    – Support the opposition in Greece that are fighting this

    &

    – Listen to what the Greek people (the 93% who aren’t bugfeces) are saying and thinking and feeling and try to work with that majority of reasonable if economically and thus socially troubled Greeks.

  102. StevoR says:

    PS. Yes it is a worry that neo-nazis are being elected in Greece – and that the French far right is doing so well now too. Some of the trends politically world-wide are pretty durn scary and make me fear for the future – incluing trend in my own nation, Australia. :-(

  103. Greg Laden says:

    rorschach, I don’t agree with you that this is not a bad thing or that it is in any way run of the mill. That there are nefarious groups elsewhere is important as well, but this even in Greece is current news and it has it’s own special importance that reference to other problems elsewhere does not diminish.

    Regarding what to do about it, yes, I considered a number of somewhat what I now regard as bad ideas (which arose from me getting mad a Greece for having Nazis running around) but I agree that most of those ideas if implemented would hurt Greece more than help. That is what I now think and I’ve made that crystal clear. Do I need to put that in all caps for you?

    SteveR, thank you very much for your concern. The main comment I’ve made here, and I’ve made it again and again and again again and again and again and again and again is that I agree with most of the comments above: Carrying out policies that would financially harm Greece would be unwise. Would you like that in all caps as well?

    The next person who feels the need to tell me that I must not think what I have already said I reject should seriously consider whether or not you want to say that out loud.

    And really, think about this: Long, long after I gave up on the idea of suggesting anything whatsoever that is in any way punitive or or troublesome regarding the Greek economy, numerous commenters have felt the need to ignore that and pretend like it never happened, and to have made that the focus of this discussion other than the issue at hand. Seriously folks, for those of you who really honestly do think that it is of no concern whatsoever that Greece now has seven percent of its parliament as Nazis, please know that I deeply disagree with you and that I feel very strongly that such an attitude is counterproductive and even dangerous. Do you really think that “someone being wrong on the internet” is so much more important than Nazis in the Greek Parliament? You might really want to check your priorities, because you’ve got them wrong.

  104. Oldcola says:

    Dear Greg,

    You’ve been such an asshole with your first reaction/post that I was on my way to unfired you on FB. I just wanted to read you to be sure that you completely lost your mind before making the decision to avoid you in the future.

    Oh boy! Was I glad to see that you reconsidered!
    I would like to thank the people above who made you change your mind with their comments. And hug you for doing so.

    Seems that we will share the “you don’t deny pain killers and anti-cancer treatments to a guy who just got his cancer diagnosed” stance.

    I’m Greek. Expatriate. In the most secular state of Europe I could afford when I left Greece in 1979: France. It was a shellfish coward’s move which may be explained by the fact that I got my sense of leftish politics under a military junta, too young, and I had to try to make my way as a declared atheist in a country with a constitution proclaimed “In the name of the Holy and Consubstantial and Indivisible Trinity” (I’m not bullshiting you: http://www.hri.org/docs/syntagma/).

    On the first tour of the 2012 French presidential election the Front National, the ‘local’ Nazi-inspired party, got a national 18,1%. Roughly 3x more than ????? ???? in Greece. Guess what? In the upcoming parliament elections on June they are going to enter the French parliament.
    That Scylla and Charybdis feeling…

    You know what? I’m still a coward nowadays. My first reaction in 2005, when I started feeling that Europe was in bad shape, was to leave it, heading for Canada. I reconsidered and decided to stay. The urge to leave the place came back a year ago and I assure you is quite strong the last two weeks and I will even apply for a USA visa. Hopefully I’ll find the strength and necessary conditions not to use it.

    You want to help the Greeks, AND other Europeans, fight back Nazis? Help them destroy what feeds the Nazi ideology, the fear of a dreadful future.

    Greeks need support right now:
    Financial: consider vacations in the greek islands (Kreta has the lowest Golden Dawn support and it’s a great place to visit), or ‘adopt’ a greek student for scholarship in the USA, or set up a research program with a greek team, or buy greek products for your breakfast, etc.
    Moral: Don’t just fucking tell them that they did it wrong ; add that you are supportive to the *majority* of them those who didn’t voted for the nazi ideology and will have to live with those fucking bastards in their parliament. And that you will do whatever is possible to you to help them fight back.

    Please! HELP!

  105. scotlyn says:

    I am addressing the original question first.
    Q. Am I concerned that a Nazi party gained 7% of the vote in Greece?
    A. Yes.

    Now I would like to make a longer comment to illustrate the bigger picture surrounding my concern, possible ways of addressing it, and also, as a bonus (I hope) a reasonable view of the specific nature of the topic derail that appears to have taken place.

    Lets start with a cladistics analogy. If Nazis are Zebras, it is not at all clear whether the OP’s major concern is about anything that vaguely resembles them, including say, Zebrafish – you know, because stripes. Or if the concern is about all beasts of a roughly equine nature. (Just to be clear, I’m NOT saying the greek Nazi’s are Zebrafish. Just wondering if the fixation on the actual word Nazi may – like a cladistic fixation on stripes, say – be unhelpfully obscuring the equally worrying existence of non-striped but more similar equine beasts).

    I live in Ireland where we are, like the greeks, caught in the terrifying grip of austerity. We have not yet experienced, like the greeks, an effective poverty rate increasing from one fifth to one third of the population in just two years. But we may. As I sit here in my double sweater cause heat is too expensive, not having a bean to spend on a newspaper, not having enough petrol to drive anywhere until some more work walks in my door (I am self-employed in a service industry), I am more than concerned.

    The background to all this is important, because it helps explain Obama’s truism that in times of trouble people turn to God and guns. The Greek Nazis may indeed be Zebras, but there are numerous horsy beasts. on the landscape and enforced poverty, together with discontent at the enormous injustice of being made to pay and pay again for the mistakes of gamblers who run what polite people call Finance, is music to their ears and their recruiting agents.

    Europe itself has take. a sinister turn and it is now setting its institutions up as primary, unseating the sovereignty of the peoples of Europe. The increasing democratic deficit, the sense of being thrown to the bondholding wolves IS the problem that must be solved. Remember that in similar circumstances in1933, a man elected as leader of a people who included quite a few anti-semites, racists, eugenicists and other proto-Nazi types managed to avoid a Holocaust – that was Roosevelt. And note, he did not do it on the back of austerity.

    We need to make Rooseveltian policies – a “new deal” a real poosibility in Europe. Austerity is leading us to a dark place and the rise of all neo-fascist, xenophobic parties is of equal concern – not because of stripes, but because of an affinity for equinity.

  106. scotlyn says:

    Oh, and, by the way, I’m not poor. I just don’t have any money. But I have food, shelter, friends and family, and – so far- the internet . there are many worse off than me.

  107. Raging Bee says:

    Greece, North Africa, Southeast Asia, Middle East – ALL experiencing the on-going effects of America’s Architecture of the Cold War !!!!!

    Bob Allen, you’re a complete fucking idiot. First, Greece’s problems are rather significantly different from those of North Africa, Southeast Asia and the Middle East. And second, Greece’s problems mostly stem from banks overextending themselves in their loans to Greece and then finding out (or admitting) too late that they went too far. That doesn’t have jack shit to do with the Cold War, and misrepresenting the problem really doesn’t help anyone. Go back to bed.

    Extremists thrive when moderates and “the establishment” fail. I’m not intimately familiar with Greek politics, but I suspect that the (horribly ill-named) Golden Dawn types are gaining power now because: a) the previous economic order failed completely and no one seems to have a viable alternative; and b) liberals and progressives do not currently have a coherent voice to speak truth to fear.

    The problems began when certain banks suddenly started extending unprecedented amounts of credit to Greece, under the pretext that Greece’s membership in the Euro-Zone made it a much better risk than before. Now that everything is falling apart, the banks, and other powerful interests who share their interest in freedom-from-responsibility, are trying to make sure the people are unable to recognize who is the real cause of their problems. They’ve been doing everything they can to discredit and silence liberal and progressive voices for decades, and they’ve largely succeeded; so now there isn’t a strong progressive voice to call them out and remind the people who their common enemy is, or to organize a united response to them. So when people are scared and desperate, and haven’t been helped to understand the larger picture, they look for scapegoats who are easier to pick on than big banks and corporations…like immigrants, whom the Golden Dawn are now targeting. How did immigrants cause the Greek debt crisis? They didn’t, but try explaining that to a mob who desperately need something that looks like a solution and aren’t very patient for a lot of lectures and discussion.

    I don’t know if any rich people or large corporations are actually giving any material aid to the fascists; but they’ve done so before, and even if they’re not, the fascists serve their interests.

    As for boycotts or sanctions, I’m against them. Greece needs help, and the sooner they get on their feet, the sooner the fascists are likely to fade back under their rocks.

  108. A. R says:

    Perhaps I should clarify my above statement, what should be recognized here is that the Greek people have the benefit of hindsight as regards Nazism. They are not stupid enough to repeat that mistake. As Giliell said, in Parliament is not in Government. FFS, the BNP gets quite a few votes every year, and they may as well be Nazis.

  109. SAWells says:

    Greg’s actions in completely altering the original post, thus destroying the context of the first half of the comments thread, looks like incredible bad blog management at best. Possibly restoring the grayed/crossed-out version of the OP would make things a little clearer.

  110. Raging Bee says:

    If you want to understand what’s happening in Greece, one could do worse than look to American politics: there’s a lot of similarity. They have the Golden Dawn, we have the Tea Party and the Christian Reich.

  111. Greg Laden says:

    SAWells, here’s how I see it.

    1) I wrote some stuff I was feeling at the time.

    2) People talked me out of that so I totally changed my mind and said so in the comments. That happens now and then and it is in fact why I blog, in part.

    3) People continued to focus on what I had originally said, not noticing my change of heart in the comments

    4) I used the “del” tag to delete the original comments so that would stop happening.

    5) Some commenters continued to focus on what I had originally said, now willfully ignoring my deletion and other comments. As a result, there seems to be about as much critique of what I originally said (but changed my mind about) as there is concern over Nazis in the Impalement in Greece. Yes, the Nazis are still Nazis.

    6) I deleted what I had used the “DEL” Tag on, rather fed up with this willful and strident insistence that I must be punished for having an idea even if I totally changed it later.

    7) Now you are telling me what?

    Possibly restoring the grayed/crossed-out version of the OP would make things a little clearer.

    It wasn’t serving that purpose before, why would it now?

    This is not bad blog management. It is what I’ve decided to do because I’m tired of the willful blindness you and some others have insisted on. The fact that you are incapable of recognizing that a conversation can have a dynamic makes your comments very annoying. Oh, and the context of the comment thread is very much there in the comments. The only thing I’ve done is make it a bit harder for you to keep insisting that I am wrong about things that I’ve already acknowledged the wrongness of and totally changed my mind about.

    By the way, what is it that causes that? What is it that causes the inability of people to accept that someone else says “A,” then says “Oh, wait, not A, but rather, B” … what is it that requires certain people who originally did not like A to insist on punishing someone and judging someone for saying “A” even when they no longer are saying it? It seems to be an internet phenomenon, found among commenters and bloggers alike. Does it have a name? Can I look this up in Wikipedia? Is it a “fallacy” or something with a useful label?

    And do people who do this on the internet treat people in meatspace this way? Spouses? Children? I suppose I know a few people from real live who behave in this way to some extent, but not many and not to this extreme. It is more common in depictions of real life in comedy or satire. Perhaps this is one of those things that emerges most fully in the context of the blogosphere that would be uncommon in real life because in real life you sorta have to look people in the eye when you are telling them again and again that they were wrong to say this thing they stopped saying, and corrected, ages ago.

    Your further judgement of “my actions” is not requested or appreciated.

  112. christophburschka says:

    This problem is much more serious than boycotts can handle. The typical demographic of Neo-Nazi or right-wing populist voters is economically screwed and angry at everyone, particularly their own government and the rest of the world. How susceptible will they be to international opinion or economic pressure?

    An adverse effect is more likely. International pressure against the people of a country (who are inevitably the target of boycottso or sanctions) further riles up nationalism by providing the image of an outside enemy.

  113. Greg Laden says:

    No one is suggesting boycotts.

  114. Oldcola says:

    Greg, you *no more* suggest boycott, you did so in your original post, right?

    You erased your initial reaction from your blog’s display, but it remains in feeds readers all over the world, Internet has a quite good memory.

  115. cafeeineaddicted says:

    New developments indicate that there may be a need for new elections, since there doesn’t seem to be a hope for a coalition government.
    I can’t help but hope that if it does go to new elections, some of the 35% who didn’t vote will do so and change the results.

  116. So, you completely edited your post without any indication that you did so, making it look like commenters were being mean to you for just posing a question and expressing your outrage and concern.
    Way to go!

  117. Greg Laden says:

    Giliell, see comment 113.

    I reserve the right to edit any blog post I write in any way I like any time I like. I especially like to edit posts in response to people’s comments. That’s a good thing. Unless you are only here for the target practice, in which case I can’t help you.

    OldCola, The entire record of this discussion is right there in the comments to read. Again, see comment 113. I got tired of stupid people being stupid. Notice that the stupid level has dropped since my (probably) final editing of my post.

    Mr. Mattir, how did you get in? Oh, wait, I checked the list Mattir had one more chance. That was it. Bye bye.

  118. christophburschka says:

    I didn’t intend to imply anyone was suggesting a boycott, but was going by the previous comments mentioning it.
    If there’s a previous version of the blog post, I haven’t read that, but the URL of this page does say “So what can we do to make Greece feel some pain” rather than the current title “So what can we do to make Greece Nazi free”. The point is that the former will do nothing for the latter, and that’s probably the reason for the change.

  119. Greg Laden says:

    christophburschka, I had originally suggested a boycott but I quickly learned from the commenters and others that that was a bad idea. Being a good person, I changed my mind right away and I don’t think anyone else has suggested a boycott since.

    Others have insisted that because I suggested it at first that I must still be verbally punished even though I quickly changed my mind. Those are people who are not here to discuss Greece, but rather, to discuss how someone is wrong on the internet. I refused to stay still and be a target for their amusement. The fact that I changed my mind on hearing what my commenters said is a good thing. The spoke, I learned. But for some that was not good enough. They did not want me to learn, they wanted me to absorb their abuse. There are a few people who insist it is a bad thing to change, or who insist that they have a certain set of rules that I must follow if I do change my mind, but they are wrong. I write this blog voluntarily, and on my own terms. It is sad that people feel the need to impose their will and their rules on others over unimportant things, and that the main focus for some people is to inflict their punishments and not engage in productive transformative conversations.

  120. Tony says:

    Greg:
    If I can chime in. I just read this post (presumably post-edit) and all the subsequent comments. I don’t know enough about economics to make a barely informed opinion on the financial crisis Greece is facing (so I won’t comment either way on your original position). From my position, I see that you’re outraged that Nazi’s have a presence in Greece’s government (others have pointed out that it’s Greece’s Parliament, but-this is me being ignorant here, and literally had to look up Parliament-I fail to see a substantial difference between saying “there are Nazis in Greece’s government” vs “there are Nazis in Greece’s Parliament; if there is a substantial difference between the two, and Nazis as a part of the Parliament doesn’t amount to them having *any* political presence, then I withdraw this point). Nazis having any influence in any government is cause for concern. I completely agree with you there.
    Having read the comments, I see that your boycott idea is viewed as unreasonable. As a result, you ditched the idea. You said so publicly. Yet I still see comments about how horrible an idea it is, as if your retraction wasn’t sufficient.
    Even though this post isn’t about atheism, I’d like to make a point: don’t we want theists to accept that they’re wrong? Not with a Rush Limbaugh ‘not-pology’, but with a sincere admission that an individual held a particular belief, but no longer does (ideally as a result of better information and critically assessing the information). That you did so seems to go largely unnoticed (or unappreciated). Perhaps that stems from your asperger’s comment (which I do think was rather rude, but doesn’t have much to do with theme of your post), or perhaps there is an Internet phenomenon at play. In the end though, don’t we want people to take a hard look at their ideas and beliefs with a critical eye and decide whether or not they should continue to hold them or abandon them? If we do, shouldn’t people be satisfied when one retracts their statements and admits they were wrong?

  121. Greg Laden says:

    Thanks for the comments.

    I think the “parliament” vs. “government” thing is a function off the Parliamentary System in which members of Parliament are elected then they do this thing called “forming a government” … which is what they are doing now, probably not successfully. In the US we use the term “government” to apply to the whole shebang.

  122. Neardedman says:

    Yes, cut aid off to Greece. Spread our movement even more, spread it like wildfire, make us stronger I say! You’re “solution” is what strengthens Fascism, and we will win. HAIL VICTORY!

  123. Jacob Horst says:

    I love how Democracy is great until someone that the majority doesn’t like comes to power. If the Greek wanted the Far-Right, then so be it! You have no right saying what they can and cannot have or believe in. Are you Greek? Did you grow up in Greece? No? Then STFU you have no clue what their way of life is like and if they feel the Far-Right is the right path for them then stay out of it.

  124. Cafeeine says:

    Jacob, many of us posting in this thread are Greeks who do not want fanatics in our government, militaristic fascists who would undo democracy if they were given the chance. While lacking knowledge of the Greek situation might make the solutions some offer to be off-key, they are right to be concerned. We don’t need another Junta, and most of us don’t want it.

  125. Oldcola says:

    Jacob Horst (@125),

    I’m Greek, I grew up in Greece, I vote in Greece, my girlfriend still lives in Greece and I don’t want neo-nazis around – not just in Greece but in Earth or even the Solar System by the way.

    I want to hear whatever solution is proposed, within the frame of democratic rules, to make them vanish and I spend time to explain to my people how extreme nationalism is a poison for democracy ; and intelligence in general.

    So, if you are not happy with the discussion GFYS elsewhere, please.

  126. Morgansgoat says:

    Boycott of Greece will come if they don’t sort out their nazi problem, that is for the good people of Greece to do. Boycott is the only thing that other countries can realisticly do though, a boycott could seriously cripple the country, maybe when people see what a bad job the nazis do when it comes to global trade then that will convince people to vote properly.

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