Change

Share and Enjoy:
  • Twitter
  • StumbleUpon
  • Facebook
  • Digg
  • del.icio.us
  • Yahoo! Buzz
  • Google Bookmarks
  • LinkedIn
Bookmark the permalink.

17 Responses to Change

  1. uqbar says:

    Romney will be worse, but Obama is a huge disappoint:

    Instead of prosecuting the crooks who robbed the country blind, he invited them into his administration.

    Obama’s record on civil rights is worse than Bush’s.

    Obama continues to support the War Without End and use it to erode and attack constitutional rights.

    The next election is going to be Romney vs. Romney-lite.

  2. Steerpike says:

    Uqbar: Did you know that in the magical fairy forest, every year all the fluffy bunnies, the snappy squirrels, the gorgeous goosies and all the other rumbly-tumbly folk gather in the funny-sunny meadow to decide who will be king and queen of summerland? That’s right: They play games, sing songs and make up silly riddles, and the ones who get the most flowers win! They all know that no matter who they choose, all the good boys and girls will have a whole year of funshine and giggle-pies, because everyone in the forest just loves everyone else, and no would ever dream of making anyone else sad, even for a minute.

    That’s how it is in dreamy-bye land.

    Here in the real world, we will have a choice between Barack Obama and Mitt Romney. Fucking deal with it.

  3. Brony says:

    @ uqbar

    Agreed. I’m sitting out most of the races during the next election. I will only vote for candidates that have st least two characteristics,

    1. No plans that are like Obama’s disgusting justice department decisions (support for wiretapping, persecution of whistle-blowers, no justice for torture victims, torture in general…)

    2. Actively repudiate those positions and policies that have essentially created a torture/police state in progress.

    The problem is getting prepared for the inevitable “Not voting for Obama is a vote for Romney!” attempts at manipulation…

  4. Brony says:

    Hey I crossed one while posting!

    Here in the real world, we will have a choice between Barack Obama and Mitt Romney. Fucking deal with it.

    False dichotomy. There is the third choice, not voting for president, or the fourth choice, a write-in candidate. To use your words, Fucking deal with it.

  5. steerpike says:

    It’s not a false dichotomy, Brony, it’s a fact. One of 2 men will be President this time next year, and for the next 4 years: Obama or Romney. Period. Yes, you do have the other 2 choices, but you will not be contributing to that decision by writing in Dennis Kucinich or sitting in your bedroom pouting. If you think there’s no difference between Obama and Romney, then fine, by all means, go play with your friends in the sandbox and let the grownups take care of running things, mmkay?

    Lots of idiots like you thought there was no difference between Al Gore and GW Bush 4 years ago, either, and threw their votes away on Ralph give-me-a-fucking-break Nader. How’d that work out for ya? Do you seriously think Al Gore would have started 2 wars against countries that were no military threat to us? Do you think maybe Gore might have actually listened to his advisors and prevented 9-11 in the first place? Do you think Gore would have gutted the regulatory system and destroyed the economy to appease his oil-patch cronies? Do you think he would have appointed Alito or Roberts to the SCOTUS? Do you think THAT doesn’t make a difference?

    We do not have a choice between Barack Obama and someone better, Sparky; we have a choice between him and someone much, much worse. Just like 4 years ago, we had a choice between him and McCain-holy-fucking-shit-Palin. I do not regret the choice I and the country made then, and I will not regret supporting Obama with all my heart this time. This isn’t some game where you get to sit back and be all precious about how purely liberal and progressive you are. This is the REAL. FUCKING. WORLD. We’re playing for keeps.

  6. Rike says:

    Unless you run for office yourself, I doubt that you will ever find a candidate who is 100% exactly the way you think s/he should be, and even if you did run yourself and be elected, you would have to compromise on many issues.
    Sometimes it might not matter, but don’t kid yourself: most of the time, it is of utmost importance to pick the lesser of the evils! Unless you do not want to participate at all and thereby give up any right to complain – well then, STFU!

  7. steerpike says:

    Sorry, S/B “12 years” above, not “4 years” vis-a-vis Gove v. Bush, Obs.

  8. nicksirman says:

    Politics is unfortunately always a game of “sucks the least”. I can’t think of a time when “doesn’t suck”, let alone actually good “actually good” were even options. Right now Obama sucks the least

  9. Brony says:

    @steerpike 5

    It’s not a false dichotomy, Brony, it’s a fact. One of 2 men will be President this time next year, and for the next 4 years: Obama or Romney. Period. Yes, you do have the other 2 choices, but you will not be contributing to that decision by writing in Dennis Kucinich or sitting in your bedroom pouting. If you think there’s no difference between Obama and Romney, then fine, by all means, go play with your friends in the sandbox and let the grownups take care of running things, mmkay?

    Why the dishonesty? First you offered a false dichotomy completely ignoring the people with principles that won’t allow them to vote for a murderer and police state enabler. Then you engage in condescension (which is fine if unpaired with deception and BS) so that you can minimize and dismiss the same group of people.

    Sorry but I’m part of a group of people you can’t simply dismiss so easily. People who are sick of the quality of candidates getting lower and lower because they know you will bend over for them in election after election. It’s funny that what you characterize as “grownup” behavior is essentially voting for a monster. Not a lesser evil because I won’t let you own the language of the debate that easily. You are voting for a man that,
    *Supports torture through tactics like cutting genitalia
    *Is legally complicit in past torture through defending everything of substance the past administration did on torture
    *Hides torture and complete dishonesty and illegal behavior in our government to the point of harassing whistle blowers. Seriously, the embarrassing secrets box and the national secrets box are the same at this point in history and the current political environment I have no reason to believe in any “Change”.
    *Supports an increasing police state and giving any company that the government wants to use to violate our 4th Amendment rights complete immunity.

    Right now the only substantive difference I see between Obama and Romney is that one is supported by traditionalist folks with emotional myopia, and the other is supported by non-traditional folks with emotional myopia. If you want a respectful dialog you will not dismiss my existence so casually. Otherwise all you are doing is giving me more fuel to continue to smear Obama’s name in the mud publicly. Neither person deserves to be in office and I will not pretend otherwise.

    Lots of idiots like you thought there was no difference between Al Gore and GW Bush 4 years ago, either, and threw their votes away on Ralph give-me-a-fucking-break Nader. How’d that work out for ya? Do you seriously think Al Gore would have started 2 wars against countries that were no military threat to us? Do you think maybe Gore might have actually listened to his advisors and prevented 9-11 in the first place? Do you think Gore would have gutted the regulatory system and destroyed the economy to appease his oil-patch cronies? Do you think he would have appointed Alito or Roberts to the SCOTUS? Do you think THAT doesn’t make a difference?

    Since I did not vote in that election you will have to deal with the inconvenience of my actual beliefs. Bush won because of two factors, Gore did not have enough support, and Bush had more support. I will tell you right now that if my vote meant the difference between Romney and Obama I would still not vote. YOU have the obligation to harass the Democratic Party into providing a worthwhile candidate. I’m not letting you turn me into a prostitute like you. The system is sick and I will not pretend otherwise. I have no reason to believe that Gore would have been better since obviously Obama is a Human Rights disaster himself. So get off your ass and start convincing the Democrats that too many independents will sit this out unless the party starts actually meaning what they say about human rights.

    We do not have a choice between Barack Obama and someone better, Sparky; we have a choice between him and someone much, much worse. Just like 4 years ago, we had a choice between him and McCain-holy-fucking-shit-Palin. I do not regret the choice I and the country made then, and I will not regret supporting Obama with all my heart this time. This isn’t some game where you get to sit back and be all precious about how purely liberal and progressive you are. This is the REAL. FUCKING. WORLD. We’re playing for keeps.

    You are damn right we are playing for keeps which is why I promise to you that I will not stop attacking both Romney and Obama, I will not touch either of them. I will stay independent, not progressive, and continue to be the reason we even talk about pre-and post-primary politics. I will not make life easier for you when you obviously have no principles when it comes to your “guy” winning.

  10. Brony says:

    @ Rike 6

    Unless you do not want to participate at all and thereby give up any right to complain – well then, STFU!

    You too Rike. Since you can’t deal with the substance you go for the emotional dishonest BS. If you can’t point to the constitutional provision where I lose my first amendment rights by not voting, I have no reason to avoid doing more of the same. Obviously you have a problem that you can’t defend yourself from so you have to go for emotionalism.

    Stop making excuses. I’m not going away, people who are sick of the system like me are not going away. Ranting at us will not make us go away because that’s just the partisan equivalent of “America! Love it or leave it!” How about some free thought instead of free emotion?

  11. Steerpike says:

    You don’t like the way the system works, I don’t blame you, Sunshine. It’s a mean ol’ world. So how’s your campaign to amend the Constitution coming? Any traction on eliminating the Electoral College so that 3rd party candidates have a chance?

    What’s that? You don’t HAVE a campaign to amend the Constitution? You’re just going to sit in the corner and whine because you’re so precious and pure and we should all fold our arms and stamp our little feet and refuse to play until we get a candidate who’s a cross between Dennis Kucinich, Eugene Debs and Ghandi? Fine. You do that. The rest of the grownups–yes, the grownups you immature little puke–will play the hand we are dealt.

    Do I think Obama is an ideal, or even a particularly good president? No, I do not. I wanted him to shut down Guantanamo; I wish he would repudiate torture and executive murder and support a whole list of progressive causes, but yes, the alternative is infinitely worse. I would rather have the judges, ambassadors, Cabinet secretaries and administrators that Obama would appoint than the batshit howling freaks the Republicans would promote.

    But by all means, you stay above it all, and keep from getting your soft white hands dirty by daring to play the nitty gritty game of dirtball we call “politics”.

  12. Brony says:

    @ Steerpike 11
    At some point you are just going to have to start being honest about my positions and stop making things up.
    *I never said anything about the Electoral College or my position on third party candidates.
    *You are still voting for a torturing, police state enabling murderer.

    You can’t give me any reason to believe that Obama 2.0 will anything like what you present given what he looks like now in comparison to 2008. For all I know the drones will have chemical weapons next summer. Of course I have to be a little puke to you. You don’t have the stomach for real change so you have to trivialize and dismiss me. Fuck that…

    You know nothing about me. You don’t know where else I am writing, what other political activities I participate in. You don’t know what I am doing given my positions. But that does not stop you from making things up since you don’t care. All I am is an uncomfortable fact, and I’m not going away. Please keep being dishonest; I want the side I have slightly more sympathies for to see what they are willing to do to win. It’s called a mirror.

    Honest question, what would you have to discover about Obama in order to refuse to vote for him? If the answer is that there is nothing that Obama could do that would prevent you from voting for him, congratulations! Your religion is politics. Grow the fuck up because if winning the battle means that we destroy the foundation upon which the society rests, your victory is meaningless.

    If there are things that would prevent you from voting for Obama, please tell me what they are because I would like to know that you have principles from a purely human standpoint.

  13. Steerpike says:

    Why should I be honest about your political positions? Or dishonest, for that matter? You have made it clear that you are going to refuse to participate. That makes you an irrelevancy. Just don’t pretend that your principled little protest non-vote will make any difference in the real world.

    What would it take for me to not vote for Obama? That’s easy. Show me that he’s WORSE than the alternative. Show me that the Republican will appoint better Supreme Court and Federal judges. Show me that Obama will choose to start more wars, eliminate more regulations, restrict women’s healthcare choices, support gutting and eliminating more social safety-net programs, alternative energy programs, environmental initiatives and educational opportunities. Show me that Obama will favor extending the disastrous tax giveaways to the wealthy initiated by his predecessor, and which Rmoney has promised to INCREASE. Show me that Obama wants to roll back the clock even FURTHER than Mitt does on Civil rights, women’s rights, labor rights, environmental policy and church-state separation, ‘cuz the Republicans are in favor of going back somewhere between 7 and 10 centuries, as far as I can see.

    So, meantime, yeah, I’m going to vote for the lesser of two evils. You, on the other hand, and your oh-so-pure and self righteous cohorts are going to sit on your hands. Do you have the right to sit out the process in protest? Of course you do. Do you have the right to bitch when we end up with something even worse than we have now? Sure. This is a free country; you can bitch all you want. Just don’t pretend that your opinion will matter any more then than it does now, loser.

  14. Brony says:

    Why should I be honest about your political positions? Or dishonest, for that matter?

    It’s that first part that matters. Since you don’t care about honestly being able to identify what a person really is saying, and instead choose to misrepresent them and falsely identify the real options a person has in the world, you deny them choice. You want tools, not companions. People are not things.

    You have made it clear that you are going to refuse to participate. That makes you an irrelevancy. Just don’t pretend that your principled little protest non-vote will make any difference in the real world.

    You see? There you go again, dishonest. I said above that you have no idea what I am doing outside of choosing not to participate in the presidential race between Obama and Romney. As for the irrelevancy part, If Obama were not defending torture and creating a police state I would vote for him. I’m not the only one. I intend to make sure there are more because voting for a supporter of torture, murder, and police states is wrong. The fact that you have to resort to dishonest emotionalism just makes me think I’m even more right.

    What would it take for me to not vote for Obama? That’s easy. Show me that he’s WORSE than the alternative. Show me that the Republican will appoint better Supreme Court and Federal judges. Show me that Obama will choose to start more wars, eliminate more regulations, restrict women’s healthcare choices, support gutting and eliminating more social safety-net programs, alternative energy programs, environmental initiatives and educational opportunities. Show me that Obama will favor extending the disastrous tax giveaways to the wealthy initiated by his predecessor, and which Rmoney has promised to INCREASE. Show me that Obama wants to roll back the clock even FURTHER than Mitt does on Civil rights, women’s rights, labor rights, environmental policy and church-state separation, ‘cuz the Republicans are in favor of going back somewhere between 7 and 10 centuries, as far as I can see.

    Thank you.

    So, meantime, yeah, I’m going to vote for the lesser of two evils. You, on the other hand, and your oh-so-pure and self righteous cohorts are going to sit on your hands. Do you have the right to sit out the process in protest? Of course you do. Do you have the right to bitch when we end up with something even worse than we have now? Sure. This is a free country; you can bitch all you want. Just don’t pretend that your opinion will matter any more then than it does now, loser.

    …and again. Instead of just asking what I am planning to do, you make shit up. You are like a reptilian brain broken record. Yeah, I’m horrified at the fact that the Democrats are supporting torture and police state building and I’m just going to sit there and take it. Yep! That’s why I’m on the internet trying to have an exchange of ideas with a person that wants to pretend four choices are two and has to make up things about his opponent so the emotions are up to 11. That way hopefully the reader won’t notice the parts where the Obama we have now is nowhere near the Obama we were promised, and they want us to trust him again. Or that cutting the genitals of innocent people is something that can be swept under the rug.

    You know real things that actually happened instead of the stuff you have to make up…

  15. Steerpike says:

    Instead of just asking what I am planning to do…

    OK, I’ll bite: What is it you’re planning to “do”, other than try to convince liberals and progressives not to vote for Obama? I’m just hoping damn few take your advice, because if they did, the effect will be to elect someone much worse.

    a person that wants to pretend four choices are two…

    You have as many choices as there are stars in the sky, Scooter. You can vote (D), you can vote (R), you can write in someone else, you can sit out the process, you can strip nekkid and do the cha-cha-cha. WE, on the other hand, collectively, as a nation, have exactly 2 (count ‘em, 2!) choices: Obama or Romney. Period. One of these men will be president for the next 4 years. You aren’t going to change that fact.

    Obama we have now is nowhere near the Obama we were promised

    Yes, and I didn’t get the fluffy unicorn Santa promised to bring me for Christmas, either! That does it, I refuse to play.

  16. Greg Laden says:

    “You can vote (D), you can vote (R),”

    Its just like driving.

    If you want to go forward, shift to (D)
    If you want to go backward, shift to (R)

    (Hat tip: Pat Schroeder)

  17. Brony says:

    My goal is to expand the number of political independents by talking to people. As my thesis gets better developed I will likely start writing to papers, and writing party offices if these ideas can get traction. I want them, and you, paranoid.

    First note that unlike your characterization, this is a positive (actionable) thing. You might not like it, but I am involved. Using words is being involved. Interacting with people is being involved as much as you might want to characterize it otherwise. All ideas start somewhere and as difficult as it might seem to be, crumbling the two-party system is not unachievable, just massively unpleasant and difficult. To do that I have to keep hammering the reality of what a vote for Obama represents, at least in part.

    You think my action is an irrelevancy? I get huge amounts of emotional flack for my action. My action is interpreted as a threat and gets attention. What will your action be interpreted as? A tiny little drop in the votes for Obama, which he will interpret any way he sees fit.

    But I think it is necessary. I think the Democrats are now just as corrupt as the Republicans in their own way and both parties are irretrievably mired in a cycle that will continue to bring the country down to the worst, most twisted human beings getting into political power. There is a reason that countries and governments have a limited shelf life. I don’t claim to have all the answers but to me some of the problems are as follows;

    1. Voting for a party and against an individual (Romney), Not for Obama.
    That gives Obama license to get away with all kinds of crap which he has repeatedly. While you are fixated on the Romney boogieman he’s up to all kinds of no good while you are distracted. Complete BS on the War on Drugs (denying that he has power that he clearly does, not to mention the huge social cost), killing Americans extra judicially, defending torture and denying victims justice, spying on Americans by any means, creating the most opaque administration in history, do I need to go on? You can’t tell me he won’t be worse. With this track record there are a lot of things that seem possible that you might think are crazy, but I don’t think many of us were predicting this Obama in 2008.
    This is basic fucking psychology. You reward the behavior and it will keep getting used. There will always be a worse candidate to oppose!

    2. Tribalism kills rational consideration of issues.
    Life is tough, so most Americans elect a group to do their issue thinking for them. The problem is that the screwed up people are pretty good at pretending to be one of you to get what they want. I think that explains Obama pretty good right now. The Republicans are the same way. How else do you explain the fact that presidential debates read terribly but sound so good! What else do you expect out of a system that is dependent on dishonesty and above all else money? You think this is going to get better? Fuck your D, Fuck your R. The filibuster is the perfect example of where the Democrats are just as corrupt and useless as the Republicans. Since when do you need 60 votes to get anything done? It’s a fucking procedural rule that needs 50 to get rid of. They will not help you.

    3. A media that is complicit in the corrupt social structure.
    I have no idea where you stand here, but for everyone else I see the media (old media anyway) as more interested in profits through sensationalism instead of rooting out the things that need fixed. I don’t think it is a conspiracy, just what humans do when they want their social status and money so it’s a de-facto conspiracy to keep access. Of course they support the current system. The overblown emotion on both sides only feeds the headlines they want. Just as long as they don’t touch that list of issues…

    Why am I not as worried about Romney? Because the zeitgeist is against him on the things that he is most likely to hurt that I care about.
    *The patterns I outlined above will actually work against him. Already some of these Tea partier candidates are being removed, not just losing elections, recalled. The way that they turned economic issues into social opportunity is more transparent than ever and it is having an effect

    *The non-religious are increasing at a faster rate than ever, and younger folks are more and more against republicans on many of the issues you mentioned. The sickness and corruption that religion has injected into politics is more obvious than ever. They don’t care about gays anymore, just their parents.

    *Wives and daughters and girlfriends are having big problems with these policies, and it will likely result in legislation or court challenge. Women’s issues can be effectively argued in public right now (especially with votes like the one we just say on the VAWA). I’m seeing an explosion of anti-feminism that feels like a frustrated reaction to me. I think we are having an effect.

    *I’m pretty sure that we have reached critical mass on gay marriage. The casual bigots have too many friends, acquaintances and family that are gay to ignore the issues. The local level can be fought successfully here. The right is socially freaking out because they are losing their grip, why do you think they settled on Romney? A Mormon candidate? Just keep the pressure on in public, don’t vote for a torturer.

    Any damage Romney does will likely be short term, but can you say the same about Obama’s torture justifications? His police state policies? Why should I believe you? We got to this point and the social messages are already there for what the Republican want to affect so I have no problem getting back in the trenches. I meant what I said about drones and chemical weapons. We are torturing right now so why not? If I was a irreverent as you say, you would be ignoring me.

    Here are some possibilities given his behavior.
    The economy worsens again (or not), OWS protests take off for one of many reasons. (There was no regulatory response to the crisis, Wall Street is heading towards business as usual meaning that in the corners of the economy there are individuals that want a profit at any cost, lack of consequences for the folks who crashed the economy last time, etc…). Arguing that social stability is more important than speech protestors are legally connected to “social terrorists” that are breaking the system and should use more “approved” ways of fixing the system (they use “health and safety” BS now, why not?). The government, anxious to use domestic spying tools that they already abuse does everything it can to undermine internet media related to OWS. Whistle blowers are hounded even more strongly. Something similar to SOPA passes and gets abused to suppress criticism of the government. New justifications are invented to keep socially inconvenient rabble-rousers in prison and uncharged (something like Jose Padilla, which Obama defends).

    There are no standards. Even though you said above that you can imagine a scenario where you would not vote for Obama, you characterized it as a comparison with the alternative, again! That has no plan for preventing the next candidate from being worse. Get some standards, these parties do not deserve support. Even if you are still voting for Obama at least take your name off the fucking rolls…

    Can you even type it? Try. Type “I am voting for Obama even though he defends torture, is supporting policies that make a police state more likely, and qualifies for an investigation under the UN Convention Against Torture.” I seriously want to see you do it.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

*

You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>